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Thanks to the co-operation of Betty Burns of Phonogram, and Mac Macintyre of their press office,
I got the chance for a lengthy telephone chat last August to Ernie (Shout Shout)- Maresca. Ernie was in Britain to discuss details of Phonograrn's new contract with the New York Laurie label, of which he is now a chief executive, but he was more than willing to talk at length of his earlier days as songwriter and producer. He has known and worked with a good many very interesting people through the past 15 years or so, as the following transcription of our conversation reveals ...........
BL: You started out in the music business basically as a songwriter, yes?First time 1 saw your name was on---NoOne Knows- by Dion & The Belmonts.
EM: Yeah, that was the first one. 1 had this demo of the song, and it was playing in the pool hall one day when the guys came in. They heard it, they liked it, they said---we want to record it---.
BL: Then you went on to do some more songs for groups around New York ...
EM: 1 did---Runaround- for the Regents; their follow-up to---Barbara Ann---. That was a fair hit. There was also Reparata & The Delrons.
BL: Ah, 1 was coming to that. You wrote -Whenever A Teenager Cries- for them EM: Right.
BL: . . . though of course, it was a couple of years further on. Did you have a lot of connection with the girl-group scene that was flourishing in N.Y. around then -'64-'66?
EM: The Chiffons - 1 wrote some of their stuff. Before then it was mostly the guys - Dion & The Belmonts, the Regents, Nino & The Ebbtides, the Del Satins -they backed me on the record I did myself for Seville records ...
BL: Ah ----Shout Shout- - 1 was just coming to that! ...
EM: I'm ahead of you, kid!
BL: Yeah! ... now, ---Shout Shout- -what made you record it yourself -was it originally intended for anybody else?
EM: Well - no, not really. 1 was just down town one day in a bar, talking to this guy 1 knew. He told me that they were just getting this new label Seville together, and asked me---You'vegot a whole bunch of songs you've written - how about you recording something for us?" 1 said---Are you kidding? - 1 can't sing!" But they kept persuading me to have a go, so we got into the studio with a couple of numbers, and the Del Satins came in, and it ----Shout Shout- - just all fell together! It got to around No. 5 in the States.
BL: It gota lot of exposure in England- a lot of radio plugging. It didn't really sell here, though. Maybe there was just too much of a glut of pure dance records around at the time - Chubby Checker and all the twist things.
EM: Right -though in the States it was the dance appeal that sold the disc. It certainly wasn't my voice!
BL: 1 pulled out the record to play this afternoon.
EM: Nol What does it sound like now?
BL: It still sound good to me - but 1 noticed that on the actual chorus part --Shout, shout, knock yourself out," etc. - you don't appear to be singing - 1 can only hear your voice on the fill-ins.
EM: (Laughing) ?, 1 was in there somewhere, all right. 1 hid away in the chorus!
BL: 1 tracked down some of your follow up singles in my files - "Love Express-, ---Rovin' Kind-, "Mary Jane---.
EM: Hey - ---Mary Jane- was a great record. You have a copy of that? You taking offers?
BL: No, I've never even heard it; but it seems that although none of it sold, you cut quite a bit of material for Seville.
EM: Right, but they kept putting it out because they only really had me and this girl named Marcie Blaine, who cut "Bobby's Girl---. 1 even did an album for Seville in 19621 They couldn't give 'em away at the time, but now 1 hear of copies selling for crazy prices, like 30 dollars a time!
BL: That's the price of nostalgia. Copies of---Shout Shout- aren't exactly easy or cheap to come by nowadays. It's never been reissued, as far as 1 known.
EM: No, it's pretty scarce ... (laughing) you haven't got a copy for sale, have you?
B L: 0h, I've got one - but I'm not selIi ng it!
EM: Actually, I've heard that it is likely to be reissued soon. Ed Kassner, who owns President Records - he has the right to the old Seville stuff, and apparently he intends to put the single out again.
BL: One more record of yours 1 found listed - "Rockin' Boulevard Street- on the Providence label. What's the story behind that one?
EM: Hey,---Rocki n' Boulevard Street- - 1 was very proud of that one. 1 had the Belmonts backing me on that. It's odd that you should mention it too, because 1 was on Charlie Gillet's programme the other day, and he actually played itl He liked ita lot, i n f act. That song m ust be 17 yea rs old.
BL: It didn't come out here until 1966.
EM: It was released here?!
BL: Yeah - EMI put it out on their State-side label. They might as well not have bothered, though. It got no promotion, no airplay or anything. Sold about fou copies, 1 should imagine.
EM: It did about the same in the State ... my mother had one, my grandmothe ... (laugh)
BL: Can we get right back to Dion -"Runaround Sue" and---rhe Wanderer 11 How did these come about? Did Dion come and say "how about writing some material for me, Ernie", or did you go to him and say "I've got just the song fo you, boy!"?
EM: No - actually, Laurie Records called me and asked me if 1 could write a song similar to -Quarter To Three" by U.S. Bonds - itwas the biggest hit in the country at the time, and Laurie were handling it on their LeGrand label. They wanted it with Dion in mind. 1 called Dion, and said "come around, and we'll see if we can get something together". We started to get the song down, and we were searching for a hook, a title. 1 suppose 1 still had this "Runaround" thing by the Regents buzzing in my head, because 1 came up with that again. So Dion said -okay, how about tieing it to a girl's name. I've been dating this girl called Sue (she ended up as his wifel) -Runaround Sue; itsoundsgood-. ltdid, so we wrote the song and took it to Laurie.
BL: So the joint composer credits were for real - but on---TheWanderer" you were credited by yourself.
EM: That's because "The Wanderer" was a song I'd written back in about 1957 or '581 When Dion did the "Runaround Sue" session they wanted to do some more material at the same time for a possible album. 1 went through a file of old demos and pulled out this one of *`The Wanderer". Neither Laurie nor Dion were very keen on it, but they recorded it anyway, to fill out their album.
BL: When it appeared on single it was the B-side originally too, wasn't it?
EM: Right. Laurie had no faith in the number at all - 1 was the only one who believed in it! "The Majestic- was the topside at first, though 1 told them they were crazy. Then a couple of jocks in different parts of the country started to turn it over ... it spread I rom there until all the stations were doing it - then Laurie had to go with that side! It ended up at about No. 4.
BL: Number 2 in Billboard. Then you and Dion wrote his next disc, -Lovers Who Wander" together.
EM: Yes, and the same thing happened againi Laurie wentwith---BornTo Cry- as the A-side, and the DJs had to turn the disc over forthem again. Sometimesthey couldn't see a hit until it knocked them in the face.
BL: Around this time, the Belmonts were recording by themselves quite successfully.
EM: Yes, they had their own record company, Sabina Records. 1 did one or two things with them.
BL: "Come On Little Angel- - that was one of yours, wasn't it : Yeah, that did quite well, too.
BL: Who owns the rights tot hose Sabina cuts now? It would be nice to see all that material available again.
EM: 1 really don't know. The guys had some backing originally for the label, but it eventually went bankrupt and was wound up. 1 don't know what happened to their master tapes - 1 suppose they must have gone to somebody.
BL: Do you know what the Belmonts are doing now? We never hear anything of them.
EM: They're still working - the oldie clubs, the oldie revival shows. It's a struggle, but they keep going. You know - they might do a club one weekend, earn a few hundred dollars, have to pay the band then split the money three ways - they come out of it with maybe 75 dollars each. Then perhaps they don't work again until the following midweek. It's not easy. They're really nice guys ' though; you couldn't find three nicer people anywhere in this business. How I'd love to see them get a hit record again and start getting $10,000 a time for the same work. But the same thing has happened to the Regents; all those other guys from those groups way back. One of the Regents is a bank clerk, one works in a restaurant or some such. They were earning thousands of dollars when their records hit the chart; now - nothing.
BL: 1 imagine, then, that it was a good deal for the Belmonts when they got together with Dion for that reunion show at Madison Square Garden - the one that Warners put out as an album.
EM: Well - you know, Dion really had to be talked into that - he just doesn't do oldies shows; doesn't want to know about the oldies revival bit. The money talked -d'you know he got something like $10,000 for that one night's show. That was the star's fee - the Belmonts got maybe 500 dollars apiece.
BL: That's incredible ...
EM: Of course, it was money that broke the partnership up in the first place. When the group first hit, they split everything 4 ways - 25% each. D ion was persuaded that going solo meant that his share became 100%; obviously true -so he split. 1 don't blame him - 1 mean, you can't fight common sense - but it's always tough on those who get left behind.
BL: Mind you, his initial solo success was pretty short-lived, wasn't it - -Lonely Teenager- in the charts and then virtually nothing. In fact, if you hadn't come along with Sue- and---TheWanderer-
EM: Yeah, he was virtually dying, career-wise ...
BL: Let's get back to your own career. 1 know you work full time for Laurie yourself now, but have you done any more recording yourself over - well - the last 10 years? Do you still write songs?
EM: You know, 1 don't think I've written a song now for eight years. I'm only just starting to think now that I'd like to get back it again.. It's England, really-the way things are here now - that's exciting me all over again. In a way, England now is what the States was 15 years ago, in terms of opportunity - it's a wide-open market. You couldn't survive in New York today as a songwriter; you couldn't sell your songs. But in England, people are interested ...
BL: Well, you couldn't have done better than tie up the Laurie catalogue with Phonogram here. I know a lot of what they've got planned, and they really intend to do it justice.
EM: They've really got it together -they're showing us the way! The catalogue is gold dust. We've really been very untogether in the States in using its full potential. now are we really planning to use our back-catalogue fully - the way we should have five or ten years ago! We've made a good profit putting together various thematic compilations and selling them via TV - we did an Italian package, a group oldie package -now we hope to use those financial resources to really work on the gold mine we've been sitting on all this time.
BL: Does Laurie still do any recording of new acts, or is it all back-catalogue?
EM: We do a little - very little. Occasionally we may pick up a master that shows potential. We've been cruising in very low gear in recent times, issuing maybe one or two singles a months '
BL: The last hit record 1 remember on Laurie was a very strange thing called -Once You Understand- ...
EM: By Think. That was a real weird one - about drugs and the generation gap and so on. It was reallyamazing that itdid so well; we sold the master to Atlantic while it was still a monster.
BL: And around the same time, 1 remember Jimmy Clanton, of all people, surfacing on Laurie.
EM: Oh yes, with ---Curly---. That was nearly a big hit too - it sold enough to make the charts.
BL: Any idea what he's doing now?
EM: Clanton? - yes, he's a DJ. He has quite a big show somewhere out midwest on radio.
BL: Both those records came out over here, but nobody ever heard them. It was when Decca held the Laurie licence -apart from a Chiffons reissue, they did absolutely nothing with the catalogue -didn't seem to realize the value of what they'd got.
EM: That's the problem with working with these vast corporate companies -they never know what they've got or what to do with it. But Laurie itself was very quiet then - it was---Snoopy Versus The Red Baron--- which suddenly shook them and saw them through the sixties.
BL: Hey yes - I'd forgotten all about the Royal Guardsmen. They flogged old Snoopy pretty hard; must have had about half-a-dozen more hits with his name in the title - plus one really superb ballad called---BabyLet's Wait---. Now that really sounds a great record even today - have to get to work on Phonogram over that one, because 1 see it as a hit single. They know how to make hit singles out of reissues - it must have given you a mighty pleasant surprise when you heard that the "Wanderer" was out again here and in the top 20.
EM: i did; it was a nice feeling.
BL: 1 think in this country it sold as many as it did the firsttime around; nowthey've put out "Runaround Sue" as the follow up.
EM: Yeah. It's only been in the shops for ten days or so, but apparently the sales are encouraging. 1 don't hear it much on the radio, though - I've only been here for five days, but it doesn't seem to be getting the plays ...
BL: 1 suppose it's early days yet. Wanderer--- was fighting a British cover version on radio when it first came out; it took a while to wipe out the opposition. 1 keep getting back to Dion, but 1 must ask you this - did you have a hand in getting him back to Laurie in 1968 for---Abraham, Martin & John"?
EM: Ah - well, there's quite a story behind that. Dion signed a five-year contract with Columbia when he first left Laurie, for something like $60,000 a year - but he bought himself out of it after three years, after he'd had the early hits with "Donna The Prima Donna", "Ruby Baby- and so on. He was without a contract for quite a while; freelancing, you might say.
BL: Yes -he did one album forABCwith the Belmonts. It didn't sell.
EM: Right. Well - on to 1968, and Dick Holler, who wrote "Abraham, Martin & John-, sent a tape of the song into Laurie to see if we had anyone who could record it. We hung onto it, were actually auditioning people to see who might record it, when in came Dion. He wasn't under contract to anybody, and wanted to know if we'd cut him on this song called ---DaddyRollin---. We said "okay - if you'll record---Abraham, Martin & John for us too---. Well, he wasn't interested really, but we eventually got him into the studio with the sing - and of course, it worked. He got to record---DaddyRollinas well, and they went out on the same single. -Abraham Martin And John-, of course, sold a million copies; he did a follow-up album for us, and it bombed. We didn't get to record another single, although we did put out some tracks from the album. Warner Bros. gave him a contract and off he went to them, making album after album of the same kind. Mush, really - it's not the real Dion as 1 know him. That album he did for us wasn't really him. He was still trying to be Bob Dylan, trying to find the right musical path this way and that way. He'd been through this stage at Columbia and it hadn't worked; 1 don't think anything's really worked for him on record ever since. Don't get me wrong-if he were to suddenly get a smash single on Warners tomorrow, nobody would be more glad than me, because 1 really love the guy. He's a great artist, a really great artist -but he needs guidance. He needs someone who really knows him to guide his work, to make his records. 1 feel he's being wasted - but then, he's living happily in Florida, he has a wife and three kids, he's contented. I'd love to see him getting the hits again, but 1 can't see it happening ...
BL: . .. unless you give him a calf when you get home, and say---howabout getting together and writing a couple of songs"!
EM: (laughing) 1 could just do that!
BL: A lot of people hoped for great things when he got together with Spector. Personally, 1 thought the album they made together was great, but from comments which Dion made to a friend of mine, he didn't agree. Apparently, there was a personality clash too; they couldn't get along together in the studio.
EM: It wasn't the right combination. 1 know, because frankly, 1 know how to record Dion; 1 can tell pretty easily when it's not working.
BL: You said You hadn't written or recorded for years, but you must still have a lot of tapes and demos of Your old stuff stored away somewhere.
EM: Yeah - tapes of other people 1 recorded, too. You know, after Carlo left the Belmonts, 1 recorded him on a whole load of songs, and 1 don't think 1 ever did anything with the tape, remixed it or anything. That I'm going to find and I work on - in fact, Betty here at Phonogram is interested in it. 1 think she hopes to put out a Carlo LP from it! 1 know it's good stuff, and I'd love to see it work for Carlo - there's another really nice guy; he deserves the break.
BL: i hope it comes off. That reminds me - there was once an album on Laurie's subsidiary Abel, which had Dion's Laurie hits on one one side, and an amazing soundalike singing the Columbia hits like 1 'Drip Drop- etc., on the other side. That mystery voice was supposed to be Carlo- was it?
EM: No, we never issued Carlo singin any of Dion's songs. We did get a guy in though, to cover Dion's Columbia material - 1 can't remember his name -and that was Put out on the Abel label, s it must be the album you mean. It wasn't Carlo, though.
BL: Okay, Ernie, thanks a lot for you time. 1 hope you haven't minded me dredging up the past such a lot, but when this gets into print, a lot of people are going to be very interested in what you've said.
EM: It's been really great. You know, I've been amazed just how many publications - papers and magazines - there are here in England devoted to music. The people really seem to want to know so much about it - that's what makes the scene here so great. And 1 really appreciate your support for the music I've been involved with.
