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(4-19-2001)
One reader, John, writes:
Dear Sitaram:
Thank you for responding to my question and I look forward to your more comprehensive response.
One Hundred Humans Left in the World http://geocities.com/tulsidas_ramayan/page139.htm
My reason for questioning the claim that 11 out of 100 people in the world are homosexual is because several reputable polling organizations in the U.S. during the 1990s have indicated that only 2-3 percent of the population is homosexual.
Therefore, I was curious as to where your 11 percent figure came from. It seems highly unlikely there are more homosexuals outside the U.S., especially with the largely successful campaign homosexuals have been waging in the U.S. during the last 30 years to gain respectability.
So, I will be interested in the documented evidence you can produce to justify this assertion.
Thank you,
=====================
Dear John,
Thanks for visiting my website, and posting at the message board.
Over the next several days,.... time permitting... I shall find those pages in the website which pertain to sexuality in general, and homosexuality in particular, and forward them to you....
I shall also endeavor to write some things in response to the question regarding "100 people in the world" and the 11% figure cited therein.
Best Regards,
=========================
Dear John:
Thanks for replying so quickly....
First off, I want to be honest with you and explain that the webpage at my site was composed by someone else. I found it, and included it at my site, because for me it illustrated certain things about the world and humanity in general (not simply regarding homosexuality).... which has a bearing upon some of the themes of my website.
I did make sure to post the name of the Dr. who was the author of those stats..... but it is simply a page that I found and used.....
Also... I will mention that I am heterosexual... but not homophobic..... so I try to have a compassionate view towards gays/lesbians..... I myself am in my second marriage (to a woman both times...ha ha)...... I mention that because it is important for you to know where I am coming from....
But I am not homophobic.... and so you will see, when I do collect those URLs from my website on sexuality..... that I try to be compassionate and understanding to each person's sexual orientation and situation, with regard to various religions and spirituality in general.....
In fact... if you bring up my "INDEX OF PAGES" and do a string search (ctrl F) on "SEX" , and keep hitting REPEAT, you will locate the several pages which talk about sexuality in general......
I also try to deal with the issue of heterosexuals who are very active and promiscuous, with regard to the issue of being religious/spiritual.....
You have aroused my own curiousity about the actual percentages of people in the world with homosexual orientation, so I will be doing some searches with google.com to see what I can find....
But my own personal understanding of sexual orientation (either heterosexual or homosexual) is that it is something which is deepseated and primordial in each individual, and which manifests itself at a VERY early age (often as early as five or six years old)......
I try to stress that one's sexual orientation is not a matter of free will choice..... i.e. one does not wake up one morning and say "Hmm.... should I be gay or straight... let me see.... oh I think will be gay, because it has more advantages, and some people have been providing me with persuasive propaganda"..... No... no... this is not how sexuality works............
Now WHAT ONE CHOOSES to do as far as ACTING OUT or acting upon sexual drives..... YES... that IS a matter of free will choice..... and some will choose to be very promiscuous and adventuresome, whether they are gay or straight..... others will choose to be basically monogamous..... and yet OTHERs will choose to be CELIBATE (although in their waking/sleeping fantasy world, they will manifest their basic orientation..... obviously by thinking about women or men in their fantasies).....
Yes, I will agree that a society which is more open and permissive regarding gay lifestyles will result in a more VISIBLE population of actively gay people..... but throughtout the centuries..... regardless of culture or religious teachings or laws of society, the percentage of people who are gay by nature will be roughly the same, though they will be hidden and secretive in how they act out.....
I do know that there have been some valuable studies on PRIMATE sexuality, among monkeys, chimpanzees, and apes..... and some of these results correlate with human statistics.... since regardless of whether you believe in evolution or whehter you are a creationist.... from a scientific point of view.... humans are part of a larger class of PRIMATES.... and mammalian primate behavior manifests a certain level of homosexual behavior and a certain level of heterosexual behavior. One will even observe dogs, for example, male dogs which try to mount other dogs..... and one must honestly admit that this is a manifestion of mammalian sexual orientation...Also,.... I am no scientist or expert, so I simply rely upon the research of others....
Well... I type at about 80 wpm... and I have typed out this long response to you literally off the "top of my head".... so please accept it for what it is.... and it is not some scholarly, scientific dissertation.....
I shall be emailing you more of my thoughts and findings in the near future.....
Best regards,
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Dear John:
I would like to say some things off the top of my head, in a rambling, discursive fashion.
I have written you a great deal here, and yet much more remains to be said, to express all that is on my mind. But I feel it is better to send you what I have now, and let you digest it, rather than let much time elapse writing a more lengthy and complex response.
You will notice that your own paragraphs are interspersed in my reply and highlighted *** in the following manner*** with asterisks.
I observe from your several emails that you are strongly preoccupied with thoughts about homosexuals in society and about the private sexual activities of others. I am concerned for you that such a preoccupation may be spiritually damaging for you, and is also possibly theologically in error, based on the spirit and intent of the Gospel message.
I would like to emphasize, and suggest several things to you, spiritually. One basic theological principal, which is unfortunately often obscured and forgotten in western Protestant practice, is that "THE JUDGMENT OF GOD is a Mystery to man." This important principle is strongly stressed in Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox (Greek and Russian) theology, but somehow became lost in the Protestant Reformation. I mention this principle of the Mystery of God's judgment regarding individual people to emphasize the error of those who actively proclaim who will be saved and who will be damned, on the basis of sin's committed or even on the basis of dogmatic or doctrinal error or heresy of belief.
Both Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox theologians are careful to state that ALTHOUGH ONLY CATHOLIC/ORTHODOX DOCTRINES ARE SAVING or salvific,.... yet there is salvation outside the church, though where and who and how is the mystery of God's judgment and grace.
The principle of the mystery of God's judgment is emphasized by such verses as "I shall have mercy upon whom I will have mercy, and whom I will I harden" and also the parable of the workers in the vineyard, who worked only the 11th hour, and yet received the same penny wage as those who labored from morning and through the heat of the day.
The other principle I want to emphasize is found in the parable of the Publican and the Pharisee (and note well that we never say "The PHARISEE and the publican", placing the Pharisee first). The Pharisee in the temple prays "Oh Lord, I THANK Thee that THOU HAS MADE ME AS I AM, fasting twice a week, and tithing, and not as that Publican over there." Much of the sin and error of western Protestant theology is the error of the Pharisee. The Publican simply hung his head,.... looked neither to the right nor to the left, and said "Lord, have mercy upon me a sinner". The PUBLICAN DOES NOT judge others. Does this mean that the publican thinks that sexual sins are ok, or stealing or false witness or murder ARE OK? Certainly not! But it is not our place to judge the sins of others.
That judgment is the provenance of God alone. Nor can we proclaim with certainty "I am SAVED". One cannot know the status of one's salvation until the Judgment, otherwise, what purpose would there be to having a Judgment, if humans could know during their lifetime whether they are saved. And if one could say "I am SAVED" then why would St. Paul say "therefore WORK OUT YOUR SALVATION WITH FEAR AND TREMBLING" in Philippians 2:12?
The bottom line of all this is that we should not be too busy looking into the closets and bedrooms and bathrooms of everyone else for sin. This does not mean that we should not formulate laws for society, and punish wrongdoers. It means that we should JUDGE OURSELVES, and not others, and also, have FAITH in the power of the saving grace of God.
St. John Climacus, of the 6th century wrote "We shall be able to recognize the righteous at the Judgment. The Righteous will be those with their head hung saying 'We have done nothing worthy'. "
And Jesus points out that "he who offends in ONE POINT of the law, is guilty of the WHOLE LAW". This means that those who are guilty of the sin of pride or envy are in some sense just as guilty as the homosexual.
Last year I read an interesting book on the New Testament by a devout scholar, a Jesuit Roman Catholic priest (I cant remember his name). The title of this book is "The Galilean". It is an attempt to bring to life in a vivid manner the times of Christ. The author made a fascinating speculation. He cited the story in the Gospels about the Roman Soldier who comes to Christ to ask healing for his servant/orderly who is in bed, gravely ill. I am recounting this passage from memory. Jesus makes some indication that he will come to heal the sick man. The Soldier says, "Lord, I am unworthy that you should come under the roof of my house. But I have many under my command, and I say to this one "Go and do this" and he performs my command, so Say but the word, and my servant shall be healed". The author of the book speculates that homosexuality in the Roman army was common, and that the servant of this particular commander was actually his lover, and hence, the soldiers ardent desire that the servant be healed, for in the Roman army, people in authority are tough and stern, and human life is considered cheap, and it is considered noble and brave to face death, and cowardly to try to escape it. Obviously, no scholar can prove or disprove whether the sick servant was in fact the lover of the soldier. But the observation and speculation is a clever one. And the motive for a biblical scholar attempting to discern such a fact is obviously a compassionate motive of trying to see Christ as merciful and forgiving and compassionate potentially to every type of sinner, whether a prostitute or a thief or even a homosexual. We see Christ compassion to the thief on the cross saying "This day you shall be with Me in paradise." We see Christ's compassion to the accused adulteress, saying "Go and sin no more." We see God's mercy and forgiveness to Saul on the road to Damascus, though Saul was present and responsible for the slaying very first martyr, St. Stephen, deacon. So God has mercy and compassion upon harlots and thieves and murderers, and most likely homosexuals as well.
Now, when Christ forgives the thief on the cross, is He ENDORSING the lifestyle of thieves? As St. Paul would say "Heaven forbid!". St. Paul says, "should we say let sin abound that GRACE should more abound? Heaven forbid!" Nor is Christ endorsing adultery when he forgives the adulteress, nor is He endorsing murder when Saul receives his vision on the road to Damascus and is converted.
It IS perfectly true that only Lot and his daughters were spared from the destruction of Sodom and Gommoreah. Even Lot's wife perished, because she "glanced back", perhaps yearning for the comforts of the old, familiar life, and for that yearning, she was turned into a "pillar of salt". We can see an analogous sentiment regarding "looking back" in the verse "He who puts his hand to the plow and then looks back is not worthy of the Kingdom." And yet later, in the wilderness, we see lot drunken with wine, and impregnating both his daughters. So Lot himself, though spared, was not necessarily the most righteous of men.
Such total destruction of Sodom fuels our notion that homosexuality is more heinous that heterosexual sins, or theft, or murder, or even sins which many people forget about such as pride, sloth, envy, and
gossiping backbiting. But people OFTEN FORGET about the prior
intercession of Abraham with God. It is ESSENTIAL for us to remember
this episode of Abraham's intercession on behalf of Sodom and to
learn several essential principles from it. First of all, it is very
likely that the reputation of Sodom's sin had spread far and wide
(just as everyone knows about New York City), so Abraham surely was
ignorant of the nature of the people on whose behalf he interceded.
God initially agrees to spare the entire city if FIFTY righteous men
are found. Notice very carefully that God only asks that they be
RIGHTEOUS, and makes no mention of their religious persuasion and
denomination, or that they be Jewish. Indeed, there WAS no Judaism in
Abraham's time, since it was before the time of Moses and the Laws.
We all know that Abraham succeeds in reducing the requirement from
fifty righteous men to ten righteous men. Certainly, had TEN
RIGHTEOUS men actually been found, and had the cities of Sodom and
Gommoreah been spared, the gay life style would not have disappeared
from those cities. This indicates that there are circumstances under
which God is willing to have compassion towards homosexuals. Of
course, God is portrayed as "the only knower of hearts" in the Book
of Samuel, so one might say that God ALREADY KNEW that there were not
TEN righteous men to be found, and thus God was "stacking the deck"
so to speak and begging the question. Or was he? I personally like
to think that God is not into "cheap tricks" and stacking the deck.
For as we read in Ezekiel:
Ezekiel 3:20 Again, When a righteous man doth turn from his
righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumblingblock before
him, he shall die: because thou hast not given him warning, he shall
die in his sin, and his righteousness which he hath done shall not be
remembered; but his blood will I require at thine hand.
Ezekiel 18:21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he
hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful
and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die. All his
transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned
unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.
We see that God is making allowance for the possibility that some
people might REPENT between the time of Abraham's intercession and
the time of the Judgment concerning Sodom's destruction.
But why would God allow a city of immorality like Sodom to be
PRESERVED if as many as 10 righteous men be found, but destroy the
city if only ONE righteous man might be found? These are difficult
questions to answer, but perhaps wherever there is a COMMUNITY or
CONGREGATION of RIGHTEOUS, however small, THEN there is hope that
others will repent and reform by fellowship and association.
Of course, God in his FOREKNOWLEDGE, from God's atemporal vantage
point of the pre-Eternal, can see as present the outcome of each
person's freewill decisions. Yet that foreknowledge in no way robs
the individual of his free will choice at the moment he makes it.
Yet obviously, God also must have foreknown that ten men would NOT
repent and become righteous. But still, God left open the
possibility that it might happen, indicating the POTENCY of man's
free will choice and cooperation with the Divine Will, and God's
reluctance to suggest in scripture any sort of election or
predestination which would rob individuals of the potency of their
choice.
Another valuable lesson from the story of Abraham's intercession on
behalf of Sodom is that "THE WORLD IS SUSTAINED FROM MOMENT TO MOMENT
for the sake of the righteous few." One day, a woman asked me with
some concern what good work she might do to help the world. I pointed
out to her, that on the basis of this story of Sodom, she may
possibly PRESERVE THE VERY WORLD by her own personal sanctity and
devotion.
John, you wrote:
*****Before dashing off to work this morning, I downloaded my
laptop's Inbox and your letter of Sunday was among those which came
in. As I didn't have time to read it before leaving home, I sent it
to the office and have just finished doing so while having my
deskside lunch.****
****That you would take the time to write a rather long response to
my query impresses me. You've obviously thought about the
gay/lesbian "revolution" which reputedly began in 1969 and has
undoubtedly exceeded the wildest dreams of the wildest among them in
terms of the exalted status in society they now enjoy*****
There have been many "revolutions" in the past three hundred years,
including the American and French Revolutions which paved the way
for "Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness" in democratic
republics.
The thrust of the revolutionary process of the past 300 years has
been to evolve democratic constitutional governments in which each
individual has rights and privileges based SOLELY on the fact that
they are a human being, and not upon privilege of birth or class, or
skin color, or religious affiliation. Such constitutional
democracies seek not only the welfare of the majority, but also seek
to shelter various minorities from the potential tyranny of the
majority, and assure that they too have equal opportunity to "life,
liberty and the pursuit of happiness".
Homosexuality has been present in society since long before Sodom and
Gommoreah. The dialogues of Plato mention love affairs between same-
sex couples. Ancient vases have been found which graphically depict
every possible sexual act between males and females, and between same
sex partners. So we know that the broad spectrum and panorama of
human/primate/mammalian sexual activity is nothing new. And as I
mentioned in my previous email, we even observe analogous activity in
other mammalian species.
*****Who could have imagined they would be able to so maneuver and
manipulate public opinion so that for some years now, anyone who
dares to say homosexual genital behavior is unnatural, pathological,
immoral and disordered can find himself slapped with a lawsuit in
short order? Sometimes I get the impression that a large part of the
public has been cowed or bullied into accepting that this obsession
with the genitals (for that's what it boils down to) as just another
way of doing sex. *******
I must disagree in regard to any notions that gays and
lesbians "conspire to manipulate public opinion" to proselytize
more "converts" to homosexual activity. You might find some odd
organization, composed of a minority of individuals who promulgate
all sorts of bizarre and offensive values, including things like
pedophile (e.g. the "Man-Boy Love Society"), but the existence of
such groups does not mean that every gay or lesbian subscribe to such
views or endorses them. It is a fact that most serial killers are
white males who fit a certain profile, yet they are a small minority
of the population, and one cannot infer that all white males are
likely to be serial killers.
I would like to point out that the Old Testament has passages which
explicitly state that adulterers should be stoned, and "do not suffer
a witch to live". Modern societies have many many adulterers, as
well as those who openly profess to be witches. The old testament
also enthusiastically endorses corporal punishment of children. Are
you willing to say that children lobbied to twist and distort
societies values so that the spiritually beneficial practice of
corporal punishment would be banned? Did heterosexual adulterers
conspire to eliminate the death sentence of stoning, and make
adultery or divorce more socially acceptable. Did the "witches" lobby
to stop the righteous practice of burning old women at the stake?
In my lifetime, I have known and worked beside a number of gays and
lesbians. I have spoken at length privately with several gays and
lesbians. I asked them many detailed questions about their
childhood, and when they first suspected that they were gay, and
about their adult lifestyles and committed relationships. One finds
a wide spectrum of behavior both among heterosexuals and homosexuals.
I have talked to heterosexual female prostitutes, addicted to heroine
or crack, who began their activities as early as 13, and by age 20
had experienced over 300 different sexual partners. I have met male
homosexuals who compulsively visited bath houses and were very
promiscuous, and ultimately died of aids. On the other hand, I have
know heterosexuals, men and women, who for various reasons waited
until they were in their 30's to have their first sexual experience
(and then it was outside of marriage). I even knew an elderly man
who had a gay orientation, but who had never had sex in his life,
with anyone, but simply fantasized about it. I talked to one gay man
in his 40's, who knew he was gay when he was 11 or twelve, but did
not have his first sexual experience until he was in his 20's. I
asked him why he waited so long. His reaction was almost like that
of a shy woman. He said he would not let ANYONE TOUCH him, until he
was totally certain of his feelings, and knew what he really wanted
to do. My point in all this is that one cannot stereotype people to
a certain behavior. I have known gay men who did not believe in being
promiscuous, who had had only a few partners in their entire
lifetime, and remained in a committed relationship for as long as 20
years. Those gays had NO INTEREST in trying to seduce children, and
found the notion of pedophilia repugnant. On the other hand, there
are heterosexuals who are very attracted by the opportunity for sex
with minors. One simply CANNOT STEREOTYPE and characterize peoples
morality or motives based on their sexual orientation, anymore than
one can stereotype upon the basis of gender, ethnicity, race, skin
color or religion. There are even ATHEISTS who are compulsively
moral and compassionate and charitable, and then there are people
(including pastors and clergy) who are compulsively religious, and
yet addicted to various sorts of immoral sexual behavior.
****But a big reason for that, as I see it, is because a large part
of society has lost sight of the true meaning of sex -- that it's not
just the "passage of fluids," no big thing or strictly a physical
activity much like sports is. But that same large segment of the
population probably knows nothing about the way homosexuals and
lesbians do sex, which goes far beyond oral/anal "sex" or even
drinking each other's urine and eating excrement, as you know. But
of course that's all very "normal."*****
****Now, having said all that, I need to say I harbor no ill-will
toward homosexuals and lesbians and I have a compassion for them.
But my compassion for them does not include supporting and applauding
them in the way they live. In their view, anyone who disagrees with
the homosexual agenda "hates" them and has no compassion for them.
In my view the most compassionate stance toward homosexuals and
lesbians is to encourage and support any among them who desire to
leave this so-called lifestyle. I have contributed money to
ministries who offer a way out of this octopus called
homosexuality.*******
*****In recent months, it has seemed to me that rather than calling
homosexuality "sexual addiction" (as I have seen it described), it
would be more accurate to call it "genital addiction." I'd be
interested in your reaction to that.*******
*****My view is that a person becomes a homosexual after the first
few homosexual involvements. It becomes an addiction quicker than
any other addiction, such as alcohol, drugs, smoking, etc. The idea
that sexual orientation is something deep-seated and primordial does
not make sense. It would only make sense if there was the kind of
physical complementarity there is between a man and a woman (a penis
which fits into a vagina, both of which stimulating the other in a
highly pleasurable and psychically exhilarating manner), with the
birth of a child nine months after conception a potential result.
*******
******But there is none of this in homosexual or lesbian physical
encounters. They just indulge in sex for its own sake and for their
individual pleasure. It is nothing less than mutual masturbation.
Even solo sex (masturbation) has nothing to commend, as you know.
Homosexual liaisons don't make sense because human beings aren't
animals who do their sexual thing on the basis of instinct. Human
beings are on a higher position on the ladder of life and have the
power to control their sex urges and drives in a way animals cannot.
This capability is one of the ways human beings are superior to
animals. If so-called homosexual behavior is observed in some
animals, it is an insult to humankind to suggest that justifies
homosexual behavior in humans.******
*****You are indisputably correct in observing heterosexuals
are "very active and promiscuous." But that doesn't legitimize or
even excuse homosexual behavior, yet that seems to be the intent of
such arguments.*****
*****Please feel free to dispute anything I've written. My ideas on
this subject are by no means chiseled in stone and if you can show
with substantiated evidence that I'm off base, I'll be glad to amend
my views to conform with a more enlightened, realistic and
scientifically correct position.*****
***I shall check out your "Index of Pages," as you suggested (I hope
I haven't misplaced your webpage address). ***
MY WEBSITE URL
http://www.geocities.com/tulsidas_ramayan/webindex.htm
or
http://shivram.webjump.com
****Additionally I look forward to receiving the results of your
searches regarding the actual percentage of people in the world with
a homosexual orientation, if you were inclined to send them along.
I'm unable to recall off the top of my head the three or so
independent studies made in the 1990s all indicating that two percent
of the population is homosexual and one percent lesbian. It seems to
me the University of Chicago's National Research Center was
one.********
***Lunch hour is over so I must sign off. (What does SITARAM stand
for?)****
In answer to your question about my name, SITARAM: The "Ramayan" is a
sacred text in India, first set down in Sanskrit by Valmiki (I'm
guessing around 200 B.C.). It was rewritten in modern Hindi by
Tulsidas around the 17th. Century by Tulsidas. It is revered in India
in much the same way as the Gospels are by Christians. The message of
the Ramayan is strikingly similar in many ways to the message of
Christianity. Ram is the name of a king who is an avatar/incarnation
of God as Vishnu, coming to earth and taking bodily form (much like
Christ), in order to restore righteousness and combat evil. Sita is
the wife of Ram, and is also seen as an incarnation/avatar of an
aspect of God in female form. Gandhi's favorite hymn (bhajan)
was "Raghupati Rhaghava Raja Ram, patite pavane Sita Ram", which
roughly translated says "Sita and Ram are the uplifters of the
downfallen". So there is a message of hope and salvation in the
Ramayan through the path of devotion, and God's active grace.
I shall write more later, time and energy permitting.
Best Regards,
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