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(9-24-2000)
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Anchored_In_God: Psalm 118:14 The Lord is my strength and my song; He has become my Salvation! (NIV)
Anchored_In_God: Psalm 121
1: I lift up my eyes to the hills-where does my help come from?
2: My help comes from the Lord, the Maker of Heaven & earth. (NIV)
Ariel:. o O ( 1 A psalm of Ethan the Ezrahite. I will sing of the tender mercies of the LORD forever! Young and old will hear of your faithfulness. 2 Your unfailing love will last forever )
OM: which psalm is that... the word "faith" only appears twice in old testament, once in deut. 32 and once in Habbakuk 2:3"
Ariel: Psalms 89v1"
OM: and it has the sense of being "faithful" obedient to commandments... not "faith" in the greek sense of "pistis" in St. Paul's epistles"
OM: ok kjv has "faithfulness"..."
Anchored_In_God: same in NIV, Om"
Ariel: that was the new living translation I quoted"
OM: aha... interesting.... I am looking in Deut 32.... verse 20.... speaking of humans as "children in whom is no faith...""
Ariel: looks at Duet 32"
OM: but Psalm 89:2 is speaking of the FAITH-FUL-NESS of God..... namely,... to stick to covenants/agreements... provide sustenance..."
Ariel: sounds like Duet 32:20 is talking of our age"
Ariel_view . o O ( 1 A psalm of Ethan the Ezrahite. I will sing of the tender mercies of the LORD forever! Young and old will hear of your faithfulness. 2 Your unfailing love will last forever )
OM: so... obviously ... when speaking about God, and God's OWN FAITH-ful-ness... it would make NO SENSE to speak of FAITH in St. Paul's sense... of Pistis... one would not speak of God's "faith" or "belief" in God"
OM: but... you see the issue..... in New testament... first mention of "faith" is in the NEGATIVE,... in Matthew, Jesus screams at Pharisees "oligo-pistoi" oh ye of little faith....."
OM: so "faith" is mentioned in Old Testament only TWICE in the sense of FAITH-FUL-NESS, observing agreements...."
OM: faith as PISTIS (in Greek) is mentioned a dozen times in Gospels...."
OM: but SCORES of times in Epistles..."
Ariel . o O ( Psalms 89v1 I will sing of the mercies of the LORD for ever: with my mouth will I make known thy faithfulness to all generations )
Ariel: I like this version better.
OM: so... if FAITH (salvation by faith) is so important... then why is it not mentioned more in Old Testament.... "
Ariel: the faithfulness is God's not ours"
Ariel: what is your other quote on faith Om?"
OM: yet Martin luther (germany 16th century Reformation) based all of his Protestant theology on "salvation by Faith",... and BASED IT ON habbakuk 2:3 (which Paul misquotes from memory)"
OM: Habbakuk 2:3 I think says... in KJV.... "For the just man shall live by his faith"...."
OM: Paul misquoted it from memory (obviously) as "FOR THE JUST SHALL LIVE BY FAITH"...."
Deleck: "Habbakuk is old testament is it not?"
Anchored_In_God: yes"
Anchored_In_God: Where did Paul quote that?"
OM: but Septuagint version reads "For the just man shall live by MY (God's) Faith.... and adds... "but if he draw back, I shall take no pleasure in him""
OM: yes... but Luther bases his theology on Old Testament verses..."
OM: even Jesus when he says "Search the scriptures"... is talking about old testament... the first "New Testament" text to be written was, I think , epistle to Thessalonians around 55 a.d."
Ariel: where is the word faith Om in Habakkuk 2:3?"
OM: so... for first 100 years... Christians HAD no new testament, gospels.... only old testament and oral tradition"
OM: oops... habbakuk 2:4 "
Ariel: thanks OM"
OM: Behold the proud, his soul is not upright in him...."
OM: but the just shall live by his faith"
OM: but note that Septuagint Greek version (done in Alexandria around 100 b.c.) reads "for the just shall live by MY faith(fulness)..... and adds another sentence... but IF HE DRAW BACK,... I shall take no delight in him...."
McGreggor: om what are you reading from?
OM: but... hmmm.... lets take a look at St. Paul's quote of Habbakuk"
McGreggor: were u getting info from, Om?
OM: Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. HEBREWS 10:39
OM: AND you can see that Paul quotes Septuagint (Greek) version,... not KJV (masoretic Hebrew text)"
Anchored_In_God: hey Om, what version of the bible are you getting Hebrews 10:39 from?
OM: now,... it is written that "Abraham BELIEVED... and his belief was COUNTED UNTO HIM FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS".... but righteousness is WORKS, not FAITH.... "
OM: so there are strong scriptural arguments to undermine the entire Lutheran doctrine of "salvation by faith""
Ariel: does not draw back then"
OM: and also... to undermine the notion of being "saved"... since Habbakuk (Septuagint version) obviously speaks about someone who "sets his hand to the plow" but then "looks back " (like Lot's wife and is therefore unworthy of the kingdom)"
My reply to this morning's email response to Salvation by Faith vs Works post (paragraphs bracketed with colons are from the readers email response):
Thanks for taking the time for such a detailed response.
What does the word Salvation really mean, not to us today, but to the original writers of the Bible? Today, we are led to believe that its meaning is some sort of secret happening, a rite of initiation possibly, or enlightenment.
For Jews in the Torah (genesis exodus leviticus, numbers, deuteronomy), salvation almost seemed to mean simply, peace from war, food (fruitfulness of land), and reproduction (fertility, survival of offspring, and future generations), and perhaps, at end of penteteuch,.... a national identity (promised land). Sheol or hell (first mentioned in Deuteronomy Ch. 32), does not seem to necessarily be a place of eternal punishment. Nor does does it claim in the earlier books of Old testament that anyone can praise God, or do anything else, after death.
In Historical and Prophetic books which come after Torah, and Psalms, deliverance seems to be from the sinful nature which keeps one from observing that law (mitzvahs) which will provide for all the above mentioned (peace,food,progeny).
Only after the babylonian Captivity of Jews (which put them in contact with Zoroastrians who have a distinct notion of the GOOD God ahura mazda, eternally pitted against the evil satan figure of angra mainu). And this God-Satan conflict becomes very dramatic in Revelation (and also St. Paul's Invisible warfare against wickedness in high places, angels of light assuming the guise of false Christs, false teachers).
It is in those books which come after that Babylonian Captivity that we begin to see the notion of ressurection such as Ezekiel's vision of the dead bones rising and becoming all of Israel.
Finally, in New Testament, the clear cut concept of salvation as entering heaven (the gate is narrow, the way difficult, few find it , in luke).
In comparison to another term; being reborn, the idea is another vague and secretive idea. It, like the term salvation, is taught in such a way as to lead us to believe there is some elite club where only a few are allowed, and that membership to that club is the highest goal in life:
But, in eastern religions, Hindu, Buddhist, jain, Sikh, etc.. being born again is ALSO necessary to "salvation" or moksha, but not simply ONCE with water and spirit, but literally COUNTLESS times, literally reborn... and the notion is that one is delivered FROM ONES OWN DESIRES... for as long as there is some remnant of desire, the soul is attracted back to birth in the world again and again, until those desires are fulfilled... and siddhartha gautama (Buddha) said , "We suffer PRECISELY because we desire things we do not have and HAVE things we do not desire (like having cancer, or a prison sentence).
I believe the term being reborn is about reincarnation. "To live forever one must die and be reborn.' and the efforts of one in this life should be exerted towards a way of making it in the next, "do not think about this life, think about the next."
: Of course this is based on my own path and realization of self. Many would disagree because they have not the personal experiences some of us do. And I submit that the reason the term is interpreted (ie taught by the official church) as some sort of initiation is to prevent members from finding out this truth and to keep in them a hierarchical mind set. This mind set is necessary for the dominion of our world- it keeps the sheep in their place.
And especially in Theravadin Buddhism,.... your GOOD BUDDHA nature is already within you, and NO ONE but yourself can perfect yourself... there is no outer GRACE or magic or rite or ritual, or even transfer of merit (as in mahayana buddhism)
The term salvation ( I digress) is similar. The original writers lived in a world dominated by evil psychic forces bent on keeping them in servitude, their cruel god. Salvation is the hoped for and yet to be realized removal of this oppressive force, the Army of . They maintain their dominance through lies (dogma) manipulation, and outright murder. Their system of rule is tied into the money and industry of mankind, and their tentacles reach everywhere.
And in Buddhist, Hindu (not all sects/denominations but many) there is no evil satan figure. "evil" is the suffering built into the karmic side effects of thoughts and actions, like Newton's 3rd law, for every action, and equal reaction (though to say OPPOSITE does not fit metaphor).... cast you GOOD bread upon the waters,.... and it shall return to you (karmically).... cast your EVIL bread upon the waters and THAT TO shall return to you (though again to say SEVEN-FOLD might not fit the analogy in the case of Karma).
So the argument of salvation is really about freeing mankind from this force to open up the doors for a truly enlightened society. Faith is the way we can overcome the lies, smear campaign and etc, and keep hope for the future. Works are inspired by faith and just as necessary for the successful attempt at freedom which we have not realized in 10,000 years.
Im just typing in all this as fast as I can think... or thinking as fast as I type,... but in the "Eastern" religions.... one is SAVED by ones self, ones own efforts, SAVED FROM ONES SELF, the bad or imperfect aspects.... so like the husks of some seed (the seed being the Buddha nature,.... or the inner Atman/paramatman/Brahman).... those nasty husks of egocentricity and desire fall away, leaving the perfection which WAS THERE ALL ALONG, but simply covered (or protected) by Maya or Illusion.....
For those who believe we have already succeeded in gaining that freedom you know not your potential, and you underestimate your enemy.
So, in closing here, for the West, the enemy is personified as Satan, Lucifer. In East,. the enemies are the six enemies of kam, krod, Lob, Mod, mahdsa, matsarya.
(I always get these mixed up,... but Lust, Anger, Envy, Ignorance, Greed... etc etc.... cant remember order).... but all six enemies stem from desire.
The enemy is the self with a small s, seeking through enlightenment, moksha,
liberation to reunite with Self with a Capital S.
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