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(11-26-99)
The Perennial Anguish and Bitterness of Religion
Fri Nov 26 14:30:51 1999
A Dialogue on The Perennial Anguish and Bitterness of Religion
CousCous: tell me is Hinduism a monotheistic religion?
Om: in many ways... yes.. it is monotheistic.... it has a trinity, like Christianity... but... the three are seen as one ... few people realize that Zoroaster saw God as a trinity but with SEVEN hypostases (the Heptad) instead of Three Persons (Trinity)....
CousCous: just as in Chritianity .. so.. in a sense... Hinduism sees god as a trinity of 330,000,003 (a figure which is mentioned in upanisads) aspects.... but in reality, the 330,000,003 are aspects of the ONE
CousCous: 330,000,003??
Om: even Judaism, in the Kaballah, which are the mystical speculations... see God as having 10 aspects or sephiroth...
CousCous: what a number ........what significance doe that hold
Om: look... 330,000,003 is a SYMBOLIC number,... denoting an infinitude...
CousCous: Ah
Om: obviously... if God is INFINITE, and omnipresent.. the human understanding cannot circumscribe or limit or enumerate God
CousCous: so why have religions tried?
Om: so, humanity can only speak symbolically about God... in likenesses, images, metaphors...
CousCous: the folly of mankind is to presume that it knows the will of god
Om: you may read all about me at my 1000 page website http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Atlantis/3425
Om: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Atlantis/3425/page059.htm tells how I became hindu
CousCous: and the folly of a man is that he seeks to understand
Om: exactly... good observation
Om: I wrote something about that recently.. with some interesting quotes... but id have to search for a bit to find it
Om: if you give me your email.. I will add you to my mailing list.. I send out little dialogues and essays about religion...
Om: I am emailing you a few interesting back issues as I search for what I wrote regardng we are not meant to understand everything
Om: Our imagination tells us that there must be infinitely many IMAGINABLE worlds which are impossible or impractical, as well as INFINITELY many possible to imagine religions and philosophies, which shall never be imagined by anyone.
If God is omnipotent and omniscient, then God must be aware of the INFINITUDE of possibilities which shall never be actualized.
Therefore, the very fact that ANY OF US exist and imagine and think and speak our beliefs MUST CONSTITUTE SOME level of approval on God's part, rather than God's condemnation or heresy, OTHERWISE WHY WOULD WE BE BORN AS WE ARE, and inspired or permitted to sp rrwe do and through our imagination, bring such notions to the "threshhold of existance"?
Imagination is the threshhold of existence.
If approaching existence... is better than total non existence... then.... (do you follow my reasoning)..... all which is imagined is more 'sanctioned' by God than that which never reaches even the stage of imagination
CousCous: you say god MUST OM_NAMAH,..................god MUST???>..............
CousCous: and so YOU have fallen prey to the idea that god must do/be/act in a certain way
Om: MUST, based on assumptions of omnipotence, omniscience, omnipresence....most of my posts are geared towards theistic christians and muslims
CousCous: why............you are limiting the understanding of god when you say that......limiting it/him to a human concept of reality
Om: perhaps you should take the time to read through my website.. to understand what I am really about, rather than basing your assumptions on reading several sentences..
CousCous: and again in arrogance you have assumed that that which is imagined by man is more important than that which has not and cannot be imagined
CousCous: and in doing that you deminish the very concept of the god you seek because it/he cannot be imagined
Om: I am simply pointing out that existence in itself is a form of approval...
CousCous: really???
CousCous: and how do you know this
Om: you must understand one thing,.. in a sense I NEVER engage in argument.... I present many many different sides , views... like many facets of a gem...
Om: I see you are anxious for arguments...
CousCous: do you not do things and make things happen of which you yourself disapprove
Om: I hold no particular position... in the sense that you are assuming
CousCous: you are making statements which rest of suppositions and seing them as fact
Om: no.. I am practicing an ancient form of dialectic called Anekantavada...
CousCous: then your teachings are meaningless .........since you do not even believe them yourself
Om: I merely seek to provide people with stimulation of different points of view...
Om: I dont look for fights or arguments....
Om: you are free to read the 1000 page website... and explore further how I think... or not.. as you choose
CousCous: so you are saying that you are never either right or wrong
CousCous: you are merely putting forward a hypothosis
CousCous: to stimulate the mind
Om: I am saying that I am not saying.. ha ha.. you are champing at the bit for an argument.. and you have encountered someone who does not argue....at least not in the fashion that you understand argument
CousCous: your arrogance is amazing
Om: if you got to know me... by getting to know my entire website.. you might find me different and interesting.... but.. the choice is yours....
CousCous: you may take me off your mailing list
Om: one may even learn from enemies, and fools... and I am certainly neither an enemy nor a fool
Om: certainly, as you like
CousCous: then why mention enemies and fools
CousCous: you see me as an enemy or a fool?
Om: ha ha.. you are the one who is on the prowl for enemies and fools... if you are like many people.. it is all you understand...
CousCous: and so you have argued
Om: it is YOU who attempt to see me as a fool
Om: and as an enemy
Om: and now you project that onto me...
CousCous: I didn't metion enemies
CousCous: or fools
CousCous: you have found your own projection
Om: all I have really done is attempt to place some different thoughts before you
CousCous: nothing more
Om: you are the one who is fighting and angry....or looking for a fight...
CousCous: and I have placed a different reality before you
Om: and you are the one who has done some name-calling, not that it bothers me...
CousCous: and you have sumarily rejected it because it might deny you as a teacher
CousCous: I simply called you arrogant
Om: and.. if you have not read through my 1000 page website.. how do you know that I am ignorant of your concept of reality...
Om: but is there not much arrogance in your own attitude and demeanor
CousCous: you have stated it yourself
CousCous: I never said I wasn't arrogant
CousCous: did presume that I had
Om: a lemon never says it is sour
CousCous: indeed I am arrogant
CousCous: however I am humble enough to admit it
CousCous: and you appear to have forgotten that lesson
Om: sorry.. I was away from keyboard for a moment
CousCous: do you have followers?
Om: I am an old man in new york city.. I simply look for conversation....dialogue... but of a certain type... not knockdown-drag-out fights, arguments...
Om: a certain number of people enjoy what I write... and read regularly.... I dont feel that constitutes followers
CousCous: and do you collect any moneys for your writings?
Om: you might actually enjoy my intellectual companionship, if you gave it a chance...
CousCous: I might at that
Om: no.. what I write and publish to the website is free to any...
Om: it is a hobby or avocation...
CousCous: but would you enjoy the intellectual companionship of a man such as me
Om: also.. I feel that there are some unique ideas at the website.. and it is my hope that they will circulate and be absorbed into other peoples thoughts, writings, and live on after my death
Om: ha ha... you mean... judo wrestling occasionally...
Om: I am accustomed to that
CousCous: But I am as likely to place the assassins bullet as I am to wrestle
Om: not that I value contest, conquest, domination, or competition.. but did you ever see a judo master, who constantly steps aside,.... and the force and inertia of his opponent is that opponents own downfall
Om: that which is timeless and perennial can never be destroyed...
Om: it wells up continuously from the depths of the human spirit
Om: age after age...
CousCous: indeed .........if the goal of the contest is simply to survive ........then not engaging in combat is always the ultimate expression of combat
Om: I notice your career is in finance... so your pugnaceous agressive nature is optimized and well suited and even necessary for success in such a career
CousCous: I tell people I practice the finest form of self defense in the world
CousCous: the 5 second hundred yard sprint and the 2 minute mile
CousCous: yes it is .........unfortunately I do not possess such a nature
Om: there is a true story about how Gandhi met with some armed militants, of course Gandhi was unarmed... he said to them, You must be afraid, since you are armed, I have no fear, hence I am unarmed....
Om: the militants were astounded, and all threw down their weapons..
CousCous: I would have shot him .........had that been my original purpose
Om: my health is poor and I walk with a cane... I shall never run again
CousCous: my mind is crippled and I shall never be free of it's sick grasp
Om: I know,... I sensed that.. but I did not want to hurt or offend you by mentioning it
CousCous: I am not offended by the truth
Om: but I sense that you have been hurt or wounded, and you are angry and lashing out at whatever wounded you
CousCous: my problem is only in recognizing it
CousCous: life hurts me
CousCous: to continue to live gives me pain
Om: but.. you assume that there IS a truth and that it is ONE, and that it is recognizable, and expressable in words
CousCous: and yet I am told I must not end it
Om: if so, you have made many assumptions, have you not?
CousCous: I assume no such thing
CousCous: truely I do not
CousCous: I have seen devils and angels
CousCous: and still do not know if they were real or not with 100% certainty
CousCous: are they real simply because I see them
Om: I recently sent out one little paragraph, entitle The Perennial Anguish and Bitterness of Religion
Om: Let us look about in the world, and behold all the anguish and bitterness in people's hearts concerning the uncertaintity of why the universe exists, why we are in it to suffer, desire, and aspire and what is the relationship between our own personal individuality and that ultimate cause of All: THIS is RELIGION.
CousCous: the unbearable lightness of being is more to my nature
CousCous: that is what religion seeks to answer
Om: that little paragraph came into my mind one morning at breakfast...
CousCous: but that is not what religion is
CousCous: religion is mans attempt to explain that which he cannot
CousCous: and to attest to it as belief
Om: obviously I am neither omniscient nor infallible... yet surely some of my ideas will be of interest to you, or food for thought, even if it only inspires you to present an alternative point of view...
CousCous: when he believes he no longer questions
CousCous: and when he ceases to question he finds peace
CousCous: and that is all I have and am doing
CousCous: prescenting alternative points of view
Om: I am reminded of a famous sentence from Blaise Pascal's Pensees (Meditations)... where he says You are EMBARKED (i.e. already on your voyage)...
CousCous: hence the reason why so many profess a profound sense of peace upon accepting god into their lives
Om: it is part of his famous WAGER argument.... but that is not what I am thinking of....
CousCous: they have ceased to question
Om: I am also thinking of the old saying you cant fight city hall...
CousCous: what WAGER arguement
Om: so.. you and I and everyone else... we are already EMBARKED, we exist, we live, we have our individual personalities, and our experience of the universe and what we call reality...
Om: and whatever that experience is, however illusory... THAT is City Hall...
Om: we can change ourselves somewhat, we can change our society even less,.. and we cannot change the physical universe...
Om: so.. and that point... WE BECOME that Judo master, who artfully steps asside, with each assault of the universe, of life....
CousCous: and when we fail and engage life in combat ?
Om: does your software allow you to cut and past from this yahoo PM chat window,.. mine does... you are welcome to a transcript of our conversation, if you would find it interesting or useful
CousCous: no thank you...........it's usefulness is not in the contemplation of what has been said
Om: just thought I would offer...
CousCous: yes you offer
Om: I use ychat ... which allows saving dialogues
Om: if you chat frequently, you might enjoy downloading the free ychat program
CousCous: it would be nice to be able to disengage and side step like a judo master ..........but my condition is such that I will never know which way to step
CousCous: except man
Om: just checking,... you still want me to remove your address from the email list?
CousCous: man thinks to seek happiness
CousCous: but finds suffering by design
Om: I rather doubt that you find many companions who see totally eye to eye with you, yet if you DID find them, they would not stimulate you mentally.... so... you might as well continue to communicate with me...
CousCous: for he believes that to live is to suffer
CousCous: my mind has seen and imagined and projected things that you and any sane person cannot imagine
CousCous: you may leave me on your mailing list if to do so would please you
Om: okay... cant do any harm.... you can always just delete what looks boring...and its free... so the price is right...
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