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(10-8-99)
Fri Oct 8 09:40:39 1999
(reply to post in deja.com alt.religion.hindu):
The REAL MIRACLE (if there is any miracle at all) is not to be found in the scripture of ANY relgion but in YOUR OWN Heart. And if you should ever see THAT miracle (in your own heart) you will need no scientist or scholar to confirm its truth, nor any majority vote of public opinion poll to bolster your certainty and confidence or to persuade and convince you. That which we can hold true within the secret chamber of our hearts, in the face of any and every doubt, criticism and persecution; THAT is the greatest Miracle, Divine Revelation and Truth.
In article
pooua wrote
The last has been set up as a test by Farrell Till in the alt.bible.errancy NG. No-one has managed it yet without reconciliations like "well Gospel of Matthew says there were 3 people and the Gospel of Luke says there were but 2, but this is because Luke didn't think the third was important (or arrived later, or left earlier)" etc. etc.
It should be kept in mind that different cultures have different ways of relaying information. It is ridiculous to expect (for example) a Jewish shepherd 4000 years and 12000 miles away to use the document criteria of modern English science reports. The 4 Gospels, themselves, are written in 4 different forms because they were addressed to 4 different cultures and had 4 different perspectives. You would make much more sense of the Gospels if you kept in mind the different styles employed.
Then why do you expect that the writer of Genesis intended that chapter to be a modern journalistic style description of events?
Who said I do? I believe Genesis to be an historical account, but I have never said I believed it to be in a modern style, journalistic or otherwise.
(response to a post at deja.com alt.religion.hindu)
To: Hari Har Singh
Waheguru ji ka Khalsa, waheguru ji ki Fateh!
(rough translation: "God's congregation of faithful devotees are God's strength)
(I'm Hindu, but I like that Sikh greeting)
I have only seen your one post out of this thread, but I can relate to what I believe you are saying.
I must admit that I viewed Osho (Bhagwan Rajneesh) with much skepticism, based on what I had read of him. Yet, one day I called a taxi-cab in New Haven Connecticut. The driver was born and raised in India. We began discussing Hinduism, and somehow the topic of Osho and his devotees came up. The taxidriver told me that he had meet some very enlightened, spiritual people among Osho's devotees. I cannot easily re-create the conversation here, but I could tell that the cab driver was a deeply spiritual person with much experience. I realized in my heart that what he was saying, about there being some truly enlightened people among Osho's devotees, was very likely true.
And what you say about "not fitting into neat little boxes or pidgeon holes" is also a very true observation about spiritual life. Most especially for the 20th century, eclectic Americans, who are not really born into any tradition, and must "roll their own" religion.
One of my favorite quotations is an obscure one which Jefferson once wrote in a letter to a friend. "Just as no two people have the same face; so no two people have exactly the same FAITH." Which means, if there are ONE BILLION Catholics in the world (according to my World Almanac), then there are ONE BILLION flavors, versions of Catholicism.
I am suddenly reminded of St. Paul's verse from one of his Epistles, "After the fashion which Jews call HERESY do I worship" (paraphrasing from memory).
And in the wonderful book "History of Heresy" by David Christie-Murray, one Anglican Bishop is quoted as having said, "Perhaps the ONLY Heresy was that there was ever ANY Dogma or Doctrine to begin with!"
original post:
I'm baptised as a protestant christian living in a family with a long tradition of protestant christian priests. Does that make me a follower of the teachings of Jesus? And next week I'm joining an 7 days long buddhist meditation retreat - am I than a follower of the teachings of the Dalai Lama ??
Sorry, that I don't fit into the little boxes you want to put me in. And I can tell you that the ppl I know that practice Yogi Bhajans teachings wouldn't fit in these little tiny preposession-boxes of yours too. Anyway you can find out more about Yogi Bhajan at www.rickross.com But much more you can find out about Mr. Ross himself on these pages ... -
Sat Nam - Hari Har Singh
Life is not something waiting for you
it is happening in you
Osho
PS: And I love to quote OSHO!! Oh my GODness!! :-)
Can't he be found at rickross.com too?
In my on-going debates at deja.com
I had criticized one post, saying that under an Islamic tyranny, such a personality would probably bow in submission. I found their response below admirable.
****
Oh sure, I'd try to fit in, for survival's sake, I'd find ways of adapting my beliefs in a muslim context...much the way pagans did under the Christian tyranny....which is where christians got their holidays, from their pagan subjects.... shiva is Shiva, and Shiva won't care if I call him Shiva, Allah, Jah, Bob, or Dudeman...God is beyond our labels and superfical things we dress him in...
*****
My reply:
Well, despite our differences, which perhaps stem largely from the fact that I see Islam as a political menace disguised as a religion, and you do not,..... Your above statement about Lord Shiva (or the ultimate nature of the Godhead, which transcends all external dogmantic, doctrinal and liturgical trappings [and even which direction we choose to bang our head]).... such a statement has great merit.
I was very impressed once, when reading an account of Shirdi Sai Baba (who passed away in the early 1920's) ... a book published by SUNY press. It mentioned that some people had established some kind of ban to keep devotees from physically coming into the abandoned Masjid where Shirdi Sai Baba made his abode. One woman devotee explained that she simply stood outside the Masjid and "mentally" made pooja, offerings, worship. I found that notion of mental worship moving and admirable.
That is the one thing which no tyranny (Communist, Nazi, or Islamic) can ever take from us, our "inner temple". Perhaps THAT inner temple is the "Mecca", the "Kaaba" to which we should all ultimately bow.
Any religion, spirituality, or philosophy which fails to teach its follower EQUANIMITY (an even-keeled balanced spirit in the face of everything) which can weather any storm or find shelter in any port during that storm....THAT PATH IS A FAILURE as a religion or philosophy.
All the religions and sacred scriptures of the world should teach us ONE THING, if they teach us ANYTHING AT ALL; namely, FOREBEARANCE...
that God or the Universe has the GREATEST FORBEARANCE, sending rain and sun upon both the Just and the Unrighteous, and tolerating an ENORMOUS DIVERSITY to exist.
Since the HALLMARK of any devotee who chooses ANY PATH, is their FREE WILL CHOICE, to follow that path, and be faithful; it is therefore folly for that Path or Religion to then demand that the devotee be a "SLAVE" and give up free will choice, which is the one basic dignity of Humanity which sets it apart from other creatures. No Power would create a being with FREEDOM, and then tirelessly seek to convert that being to SLAVERY and BONDAGE.
And since we observe in the physical world and universe all around us CONSTANT CHANGE and Evolution, ANY path which is INCAPABLE OF CHANGE, inflexible, frozen in some distant century's culture and language, is obviously a FALSE path, since it does not reflect and emulate the most CONSTANT ASPECT of reality, namely CHANGE. If it is fundamentalist, rigid and inflexible and IMMUTABLE, it obviously cannot thrive in a constantly changing MUTABLE universe. Even Human languages change and evolve. English speaking people can no longer even understand the writings of Chaucer without special study of that now extinct dialect of the English language. And I have talked with many Pakistani Muslims who freely admit that they cannot understand Arabic and have read the Koran in translation. And these Muslims clearly demonstrate that they are totally ignorant of some of the things which the Koran repeatedly says, such as the Koran's across-the-board condemnation of all Christians and Jews to the eternal tortures of hell. Why would God be so foolish as to reveal "the truth" in only one language, which would eventually become frozen in time?
Our physics and science even teaches us now, that the orbits of the planets, the length of the day and the year, are not fixed, but changing, slowing down, lengthening.
As I write, I am thinking about the rigid, fundamentalist inflexibility which the Koran ascribes to Allah. Allah is portrayed as jealous, angry, spiteful, and mocking. These traits in humanity are FAULTS and FLAWS, shortcomings from which most reasonable religions and philosophies seek to LIBERATE HUMANITY. Of course God has the right to be petty, but why would God WANT to be petty?
=============================
(Sitaram writes):
I can agree with much of what you say, and I value dialogue with you, though we do not see "eye-to-eye". You have a good mind and a "good spirit". And certainly, there are perhaps MILLIONS of very nice "cafeteria Muslims" (a little of this, a little of that and NO THANKS,,, NONE of THAT)... who arnt really fully conscious of what the Koran is actually saying, or how it compares with other Sacred Scriptures.
(Rev. Carroll write):
I know you dig the Sufis, but when you get down to it, where did they come from? Islam. Yes, they practice their submission to Allah differently than mainstream muslims, *but* they still came from the same source, Muhammed, in a different way. So clearly not ALL of Islam can be condemned....by all means, go after the fanatics with their skewed ideals of "Jihad", where they believe all but Islam is Shaitan, and that they need to kill us all, but leave the sincere people who pray at their mosques, use their rugs, study the Quran, and I'd say even Muhammed, out of it...these aren't the ones doing the killing, it's the nuts.
(Shivadaasa writes):
Reverand (do you want me to call you that or call you Carroll?), Many people make the innocent assumption that politics and religion are two different entities. While that may be so in many western civilizations now, in Islamic republics, it is not at all so.
The Caliph is closely aligned with the leaders of the Mosque. It has been so from Mohammed's time. It was so in Christian societies also when Roman Catholics were powerful but slowly the western civilizations have become more civilized and therefore such a situation does not exist in the west.
Many innocent people also assume, due to their ignorance, that just because the Muslims they see and meet are good people, Islam is a wonderfully tolerant religion. Far from the truth. You need to read a lot about Islam before you will come to the conclusion that Islam as a religion is truly evil. In short, what Sitaram is saying is The Truth.
If you are interested, I can provide website addresses where you can read articles by Zulfikhar Khan and other true intellectuals of Muslim origin who have outright rejected Islam because of what they have found in that evil religion. www.swordoftruth.com is one such site; you can read Khan's articles through satyamevajayathe and other websites.
Some of the people who hate my guts (such as Sateesh) keep up their venomous attacks when I say I like Muslims. "Ha ha ha", they say, "how can you hate Islam when you love Muslims? Hopelessly illogical, you stupid Shivadaasa!". The truth is also that many of the Muslims themselves do not know how bad their religion is. This is because they have not made an in-depth study.
Most Muslims are perfectly content to pray 5 times a day to Allah, carry out their religious practices and lead normal lives and have'nt read the Koran or the Hadiths. Most of them are simple Muslims who want to live peacefully and who are very loveable. I have met innumerable such men and women in India and they are all great people.
And also, there are many good Muslims living in all our socities (Indian, American, British, etc) who are well qualified in arts, Science, Engineering, Finance, Medicine etc. All such people bring good name to the religion. Don't let that mislead you. What they practice is not Islam.
True Islam calls for:
(a) Attack on the Kafirs (Jihad is highly exalted in Islam),
(b) Tells the Muslims that they CANNOT be and SHOULD NOT be friends with Kafirs,
(c) Encourages Muslims to be friends with other Muslims; no one else; (d) Advocates the supremacy of the Arab nationalism,
(e) Suppresses many of the important rights of women (although in other respects, Islam is more liberal than the Hindu society), etc.
Thirty years ago, Kashmiris were ONE people. There was no difference between Kashmiri Muslims and Kashmiri Hindus. The Kashmiri Pandits turned their noses up when they encountered outsiders while they loved all the other Kashmiris, Muslim or Hindu.
Now all that has changed. Why? Do you know why? I will tell you why. All that changed because the Muslims learnt their Koran and Hadiths the proper way. And they understood that violence is perfectly acceptable to Muslims who have a duty to carry out Jihad.
If we let Kashmir become an independent country, I can bet you that the Hindu population there will be decimated. Let me ask you this blood-curdling question. What is the guarantee that all the nice, innocent people living in India, USA and other countries will not learn the lesson the Kashmiri Muslims learnt and resort to World Wide Violence?
Can you or any other person answer this question? Let me tell you what I think. It can be prevented by eliminating Islam as a religion from our list of religions. Not with a typical Nazi tactic such as a genocide; but by constant discussions, attack on Islam etc. Which is what Sitaram, Jai Maharaj and many other good individuals are trying to do.
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