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Please join in the discussion at the Message Board!
(Total activity, all pages, all sites, in page reloads, since 9/21/2000)
(10-6-99)
(PM in Yahoo with an Atheist):
FortuneTeller: forgive me, do you have some intelligence
Om: thank you... I do try
Om: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Atlantis/3425
FortuneTeller: I come in here for debate, not to mix tripe with idiots
Om: you may read 190 browser pages (1000 printed pages) of my dialogues over past year
Om: what I believe, and how I express myself is a matter of public knowledge
FortuneTeller: don't want to, but what does it amount to, in a sentence
Om: ohhh.. only about 12 pages or less have to do with Islam
Om: there is quite a diversity....
FortuneTeller: I want to find an intelligence greater than my own, but I never do, that's not a boast, it is a search for reason
Om: people approach me with different questions, problems... on a variety of subjects.. including sexual orientation
Om: sexual orientation with regards to religion
Om: several women had marital problems.....
FortuneTeller: I don't have any questions for you. I want you to agree that all religions, as we know it are nonsense
Om: one man was career military, with 2 small children and wanted to take them to a church
FortuneTeller: or to be clever enough to convince me
Om: but had been traumatized by a baptist hell fire and brimestone upbringing
Om: so I suggested that he try the Episcopal church
Om: even though I myself am Hindu
FortuneTeller: would you like me to enlighten you and take you to a new place of understanding
Om: there are actually many pages that would be quite interesting to an atheist who desires to debunk religion
FortuneTeller: no, there's is intelligent debate, one on one, I don't like to be referred to someone else's diatribe
Om: I am an old man... I have practiced many religions.... learned several languages, ancient and modern...
Om: what new thing will you teach me... I always like to learn something new
FortuneTeller: are you able to prove your point through the power of your reason or do you rely on drivel from centureis past
Om: I have no interest in proving anything really... I rarely argue... I simply advertise
Om: I want you to believe what is comfortable for YOU
FortuneTeller: why can I never find someone with a stance so overwhelming that they can debate it, they all hide like you hide
Om: I am actually quite content with where I have wound up spiritually and philosophically
FortuneTeller: but I forgive , you are a religious man and you have developed your crutch
Om: actually.. I am not far from death... an my thoughts are more in preparation for that experience... but.. the website is my final message... which..
Om: I hope will live on after me... and be of some use or interest to others...
FortuneTeller: but you do not have it sorted in your own head yet, I can tell
Om: if it pleases you to believe that... then you are free to perceive me as such
Om: did you ever watch a Judo match closely...
FortuneTeller: you used the words quite content that proves you are not there
FortuneTeller: no
Om: the victor is usually the one who steps aside more frequently...
FortuneTeller: platitudes, ten a penny
FortuneTeller: gets you nowhere
Om: I am exactly were I want to be
Om: how about you?
FortuneTeller: would you not like to reach a stance where your position was entirely based on your intellect and not your trust
Om: it is more refreshing to discuss these things with you.. than to talk to those Muslims.. I must say
FortuneTeller: you have the ability to weigh and assess credibility, thank you
Om: in a sense... I am simply doing a job.... I am a vendor at a hotdog cart (except they are vegetarian hotdogs, tofu)....
Om: if you are hungry... and want a hotdog... then... I can give you anything you want... mustard, relish,...etc
Om: but... if you are not hungry.. then I have nothing to offer you except a smile, and a gooday
Om: does that make sense...?
FortuneTeller: let me start from a point you will find it hard to disagree with.......
FortuneTeller: either there is some sort of God, Mr magic, whatever we might call him, creator
Om: but... I am not interest in arguing....
FortuneTeller: or there isn't
Om: do you percieve me as an argumentative person?
FortuneTeller: this is not an argument is it
Om: but.. you use words like... with which you cannot disagree
FortuneTeller: I find you as someone that I want to change their stance
FortuneTeller: you will forgive me for that
Om: so.. your posture.. your stance... is one of someone who likes to argue....
Om: but... even if I became exactly whatever it is that you think I should be... how would that change YOU?
FortuneTeller: no, I have had many arguments, when I argue with someone who has more wisdom than me then I move my stance, the more I argue, for want of a better word the more I learn
FortuneTeller: ok can I give you a quick confession and that will help you understand where I am coming from
Om: by the way.. if you give me your email... I can add you to my list.. I write little interesting things and send them out.. periodically
FortuneTeller: but should I share my story
Om: certainly.. if you like
FortuneTeller: I have an ex wife in kansas and a 15 year old daughter there, the 15 year old is newly pregnant
FortuneTeller: mother has sent her to a home for unmarried mothers
FortuneTeller: 200 miles away
FortuneTeller: mother is very religious
FortuneTeller: good christian
Om: it simply occured to me to mention the email thing... sorry to hear that
FortuneTeller: mid west is full of good christians
Om: oops.. I typed wrong
Om: sorry to hear that... yes.. the bible belt
FortuneTeller: they have bought tickets to heaven
Om: more than you could shake a stick at
FortuneTeller: I can outwit any christian, I have more love, compassion and tolerance for my fellow man than any of them
FortuneTeller: exactly
Om: I am quite certain that you do...
Om: my website has many pages devoted to the hypocrisy of such Fundamentalists
FortuneTeller: I go in mighty cathedrals and I think how sad, you know the story of the emporer without any clothes
FortuneTeller: so sad that they spent all those centures building all those churches, based on nothing
Om: many people feel a bitterness.. about life, existence... bitterness at the universe.... at the thought of God, of organized religions
FortuneTeller: I ocassionaly listen to religious programmes on american tv
Om: one of the most palpable, undeniable aspects of human existence is suffering, unhappiness
FortuneTeller: it does not stand up to the least bit of scrutiny
FortuneTeller: their arguments and position is so fragile and so pathetic
FortuneTeller: any interesting question you put to a christian is answered with the lord works in mysterious ways, his wonders to perform
FortuneTeller: that covers any difficult question
FortuneTeller: I think it is pathetic
Om: well.. the most puzzling thing about those religions.. is their claim that God is Merciful, in one breath.. and then Eternal damnation in the next
FortuneTeller: agreed
Om: that is one of the BIGGEST problems right ther.. with many many religions
Om: the first sentence of Koran is in the Name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful
Om: but by Surah 4... we see 'The unbeliever shall be cast into FIRE, and when their skin burns away, THEY SHALL BE GIVEN A FRESH SKIN so that they may taste the torment
FortuneTeller: I didn not know that, but I am against anything that requires reading someone else's work or thoughts, I can do it all in my own head, like we all can
Om: I am simply giving interesting examples
Om: obviously .. all of us can do many things in our own head... but... there is nothing quite like reading the Dialogues of Plato (for example)....
FortuneTeller: would you like to hold a view that you knew was unassailable
Om: we can all hum a tune... but... everyone should listen to Mozart and Bach at least once before they die...
FortuneTeller: you did not answer my question
Om: sorry.. the muslis are assailing me in PM
Om: I got distracted
FortuneTeller: can I take you on a yes/no journey
Om: ha ha ha.. you must visit my website.. page 6 I think Beware the simple Yes or No question
Om: I explain the fallacy of such arguments
Om: I never consent to them myself
==================================
(PM in Yahoo with a Muslim):
Sunni_Muslim:, SO YOU REALLY HATE ISLAM RIGHT
Om: so whats to like..??? look at you people.. you are not very likeable... are you?
Sunni_Muslim:, YOURE A RACIST
Sunni_Muslim:, LOOK AT YOU HINDU PEOPLE
Om: and what are you?
Om: ha ha.. youre very words are racist
Sunni_Muslim:, SLAUGHTERING MUSLIMS IN KASHMIR
Sunni_Muslim:, AND TELL ME WHAT PRASAD IS
Om: I have no indian ancestry.. I simply believe in a scripture written 3000 years ago
Om: and I live in america...
Sunni_Muslim:, FROM WHATIVE HEARD ITS THE RITUAL OFCOW URINE DRINKING
Sunni_Muslim:, I DO TO
Om: but what does any of this have to do with Islam... or the Koran or Mohammed, or what I think about them
Sunni_Muslim:, you admire all other riligions exept islam ive noticed
Om: you are correct...
Om: though I have found nice things to say about Sufi
Sunni_Muslim:, if islam is wrong why arnt there any gay bars in the middle east
Om: but Orthodox Muslims consider Sufi heretics
Sunni_Muslim:, it must be right
Sunni_Muslim:, I wouldnt like to bow down to a black statue with 4 arms
Om: you mistake outward behavior and law abiding with spiritual purity
Sunni_Muslim:, kali matha who is worshipped by millions in india
Om: you bow down to Kaaba stone...
Om: I fail to see the difference...
Sunni_Muslim:, we bow down to a house not a statue which looks scary
Om: but... you I consider you FREE to worship as you see fit, and express your criticisms of Hinduism, Christianity, Judaism etc (of which Koran is filled)
Om: but.. Muslims do not respecy MY right and freedom to my beliefs, or freedom of speech
Sunni_Muslim:, click this for proof http://kriyayoga.org/devi.html
Om: I have spent my whole life studying every religion... thank you.. and Koran and hadith as well...
Sunni_Muslim:, yoy know your complection resembles salman rushdie
Sunni_Muslim:, I saw your profile
Om: so.. you feel my beliefs are genetic... ha ha
Om: what is your point
Sunni_Muslim:, have you read satanic verses
Sunni_Muslim:, im sure you have
Om: actually... I sat in a bookstore and skimed through every page.. but did not read it thoroughly
Om: I expected to find something really scandelous and outrageous...
Om: but found it was quite tame...
Sunni_Muslim:, your view points are exactly from that book
Sunni_Muslim:, so youre white and grew up in india
Om: actually... that is not true.. although... it was through my curiosity about that book... that I learned about the issue of satanic verses in the Koran
Sunni_Muslim:, there are no satanic verses in koran
Om: I am white... born and raised in USA.. and now an old man.... and slowly dying of liver disease
Om: if you are really curious...
Sunni_Muslim:, 50% of all rabbis are thought to be gay
Sunni_Muslim:, well now you know why
Sunni_Muslim:, islam is the truth
Om: I need only look at the immoral character of the Prophet Mohammed's life to form my opinions
Om: gay rabbis do not concern me
Sunni_Muslim:, im sorry to hear about liver desease but islam is not satanic
Om: tell me honestly what it is that you really want from me... what do you really hope to achieve by our discussion?
Sunni_Muslim:, well I want you to be convinced that islam is not a hatred riligion
Om: well... I will tell you honestly.. it just so happens that the Koran was the first scripture I read cover to cover, at the age of 19...
Sunni_Muslim:, ive also been raised in new york
Om: I was motivated to do so... because I read The Alexandrian Quartet 4 novels by Lawrence Durrel
Sunni_Muslim:, you should learn about the kali cult then judge hinduism
Om: about Alexandria in the 1930's... and it spoke at length about Islamic culture
Om: so.. I purchased an english translation of the Meaning of the GLorious Koran by Mohammed Marmaduke Pickthall...
Om: and read it cover to cover.. underlining many sentences...
Sunni_Muslim:, well some islam has been twisted
Om: I have it on my desk right now as I type.... the origina copy of Koran that I read
Om: but I was simply not moved at age 19 to embrace Islam...
Sunni_Muslim:, well its the truth
Sunni_Muslim:, wxcept for abour @5
Sunni_Muslim:, I mean 2%
Om: as years went by... I studied many many religions....
Om: as the years went by... I kept turning my attention back to Islam and the Koran...
Sunni_Muslim:, the only twisted form of islam is shiasm'
Sunni_Muslim:, sunniisn is fine
Om: slowly, I came to the conclusions and beliefs that I now hold...
Om: though... to be honest.. much of what I observed is based on actual verses of the Koran....and is not influenced by Sunni or Shiite or Sufi..
Sunni_Muslim:, well im sorry but your beleifs are wrong you should study hinduism and judiasm in more depth
Om: you are entitled to your opinion.. and I am entitled to mine...
Sunni_Muslim:, yes we are
Om: I have created my website.. so that my thoughts and ideas will be available to those who find them useful or interesting, after I am gone
Sunni_Muslim:, but keep in mind idol worship is a illusionistic dream
Om: well.. what can I say. since I have told you that for me.. Kaaba is an idol par excellance...
Om: but.. you will only counter with all your Islamic arguments to justify it...
Om: if I tell you that Mohammed should not have received a special revelation to marry his adopted sons wife... you will come up..
Sunni_Muslim:, lastly to learn more about hinduism click this http://kriyayoga.org/devi.html
Om: with more arguments of justification...
Om: lets get one thing straight...
Om: lets pretend that I am an ATHEIST.. that I have absolutely no beliefs... hindu christian jewish or other...
Sunni_Muslim:, the only false prophet was ali
Om: I would still perceive Islam exactly the same way...
Om: surely.. you can understand that...
Sunni_Muslim:, I think that your idea of islam includes shiaism
Sunni_Muslim:, which is not true islam
Om: I mean, .. that my opinion of Islam has nothing to do with my own religious beliefs or practice
Sunni_Muslim:, shiates have twisted the islamic message
Sunni_Muslim:, and what is your riligion
Om: you see.. your very OWN KORAN in many many verses REPEATEDLY.. that Allah is stoping up my ears, and blinding my vision and understanding,... and MOCKING ME the Kaphir.. to cast me into even DEEPER CONDEMNATION...
Om: right.. is that not what the Koran says....
Om: and if you believe those verses.. then what shall you gain by arguing with me?
Sunni_Muslim:, well the shiates have added their own beliefs which the koran does not say
Om: does not your Prophet Mohammed himself warn you to have no discourse with one like me?
Sunni_Muslim:, yes true
Sunni_Muslim:, you are considered kafir in islam
Om: I feel quite confident that my english translation by Pickthall accurately renders what the Koran says...
Om: yes.. thats what I just said...
Om: am I making any sense to you?
Sunni_Muslim:, western authors have twisted the koranic message
Sunni_Muslim:, read a true english translation of islam
Sunni_Muslim:, at a bookstore
Om: am I not demonstrating to you the FUTILITY of your own arguments.. based on what the Koran itself tells you numerous times???
Sunni_Muslim:, well I have to go once again check out this site http://kriyayoga.org/devi.html
Sunni_Muslim:, and im sorry to say this but you do resemble rushdie alot
Om: WELL... APart from the fact that I am a kaphir.. I dont seem all that bad.... now do I?
Om: but.. I find nothing wrong with rushdie's appearance
Om: what does that have to do with anything?
Sunni_Muslim:, well youir beliefs are mostly from a brainwashed point of view im sorry
Om: lots of white people look like me
Sunni_Muslim:, all from views from western authors
Om: rushdies book doesnt say ANY of the things that I say in chat.. or at my website
Sunni_Muslim:, yes it does
Sunni_Muslim:, read all of it its very similar
Om: I only spent one hour skimming through the book to find something blasphemous...
Sunni_Muslim:, there has to be a connection
Sunni_Muslim:, well I hope you get well
Om: actually.. I would really love a copy.. but its only hard cover.. and so expensive.. and I have 1000 books already
Om: thanks for your kind wishes...
Om: I have nothing against any individual muslim.. I have visited masjids many times..
Om: and onces.. I spend several hours in manhattan trying to help a young Bangladeshi find a job in a resteraunt
Om: take care.. bye
Sunni_Muslim:, then why are you insulting this faith hinduism has the most bizzare rituals
Sunni_Muslim:, im sure you know what prasad is
Om: I speak what I perceive to be the truth
Sunni_Muslim:, cow urine drinking
Sunni_Muslim:, in hinduism
Sunni_Muslim:, well adios
Om: prasad is blessed food ... I have been with hundreds of hindus from many countries.. and never once saw anyone drinking urine..
Om: ha ha.. you say adios.. which is heresy for a muslim
Sunni_Muslim:, well it is a ritual
Om: dios is christian god..... you should only say Allah
Sunni_Muslim:, even ghandi drank cow urine
Om: it is prefereable to drink cow urine.. then to be a muslim and murder and enslave kafirs
Sunni_Muslim:, muslims are getting murdered in kashmir
Om: what can I say.. I will take gandhi and the urine any day over the Ayatollahs... and the Umma
Sunni_Muslim:, 35,000 have been killed so far
Sunni_Muslim:, in gulf war 250,000 aids free muslims were murdered
Om: look.. what can I say... I wont change , you wont change... and I am sorry about the horrors of war, and mans inhumanity to man
Sunni_Muslim:, at the hands of the white race
Om: but it does not change how I perceive the actual verses of the Koran
Om: yes.. I will agree that whites have committed atrocities in history
Sunni_Muslim:, well like I said 2 % ok koranic verses have been twisted
Om: I am not proud of being white or germanic, from that point of view...
Om: but.. I find 100% of the verses evil.. im sorry
Sunni_Muslim:, yes and 1 million died in iran iraq war
Om: well. make that 90%
Om: there are a few that could be salvaged in isolatation, out of context
Sunni_Muslim:, youre a typical salman rushdie im shocked at the resemblence
Sunni_Muslim:, have any friends told you that you look like him
Sunni_Muslim:, im serious
Om: but.. let us say you were african american.. and let us say that I told you..aha you are african.. you have a lower inteligence
Om: would you not be hurt and shocked...
Sunni_Muslim:, salman rushdie said the same thing
Sunni_Muslim:, in the book
Om: and would that be any different from you telling me that I resemble rushdie....
Sunni_Muslim:, im originally from pakistan
Om: rushdie is born and raised muslim in india....
Sunni_Muslim:, rushdie was also a shiate
Om: but.. look at the foolishness of what you are saying about my resemblance to rushdie
Om: is your skin very white.. or slightly brown???
Sunni_Muslim:, it sounds foolish but its true
Sunni_Muslim:, I actually look southern italian
Om: my point is.. what does your skin color.. or the size of your nose.. have to do with how you think or believe...
Sunni_Muslim:, slightly brown
Om: if you had become an orphan.. and had been adopted by Orthodox Jews.. you might well be a devout rabbi today
Sunni_Muslim:, and im sure youve read about ghenges khan
Om: or if Roman Catholics had raised you... you might well be a Priest...
Om: or if Hindus had raised you.. you might be very devoted to Lord Krishna...
Sunni_Muslim:, im happy what I am
Sunni_Muslim:, you seem to be a confused person
Om: yes.. but.. you have not seriously considered WHY you are what you are today
Om: but... is it not YOU who are confused....
Sunni_Muslim:, who does not know what riligion to turn to
Sunni_Muslim:, what is your riligion
Om: you are saying that I am what I am ..because of the color of my skin, or because I look like someone...
Sunni_Muslim:, you cant practice 3 riligions
Om: is that not the very height of foolishness.
Om: I can do anything I like.. this is america , remember.. no Mulla is holding a knife to my throat (yet)
Sunni_Muslim:, and keep in mind that kali matha and that mandir stuff is all garbage
Om: look... I happen to be born in america, white, very white, germanic,... male... and raised by apathetic protestant parents with NO religion .. never brought to church once...
Sunni_Muslim:, it will get you no where
Om: so.. I shoped around for a religion...
Om: listen to me very carefully... ok.. for one minute , please...
Sunni_Muslim:, well that means that your real riligion is christianity
Sunni_Muslim:, the twisted nazi type
Om: you have come to talk to me, angry.. because I say things you dont like about Islam... right.. am I correct?
Om: is that right... yes or no.. ?
Sunni_Muslim:, yes it is
Om: ok.. now follow my next argument...
Sunni_Muslim:, the germans were a sick breed dont get me wrong
Om: you are saying EXACTLY THE SAME THINGS about hinduism.. and every other religion... right..
Om: am I correct... yes or no...?
Om: you are doing the EXACT SAME THING that I am doing...
Om: right?
Om: answer me please..?
Sunni_Muslim:, im deciphering right from wrong
Om: and furthermore.. many verses in the Koran... are doing the EXACT SAME THING, criticizing Christians and Jews...
Om: am I correct...?
Sunni_Muslim:, thats not right
Sunni_Muslim:, well the jews did try to kill mohammad though
Sunni_Muslim:, in mecca
Om: but I have isolated many of the verses from the Koran which denounce jews and christians...
Om: and I placed them on a page at my website...
Sunni_Muslim:, mohammed also destroyed idols in mecca to rehabilatate people
Om: how can you say that the Koran does not denounce Jews and Christians????
Sunni_Muslim:, idol worship is garbage im sorry
Om: please answer me.. how can you honestly say that the Koran does not denounce Jews and Christians?????
Sunni_Muslim:, you admire all other riligions because you truly hate islam
Om: wait.. you have not answered my question...
Sunni_Muslim:, it only denounces the evil jews
Om: not so.. it also denounces Christians...
Sunni_Muslim:, the ones who tried to kill the prophet
Sunni_Muslim:, in what way
Om: good grief.. you mean you havnt read the koran that carefully????
Sunni_Muslim:, and keep in mind islam is second largest riligion in usa
Om: you mean you really dont know???
Sunni_Muslim:, its passed judiasm now
Om: I know one billion in world out of 6 billion
Om: judaism is only 12 million in world or 14...
Sunni_Muslim:, yes
Om: Sikhs are 19 million (more than jews0
Om: BUT.. I can tell that you really havnt read the Koran...
Sunni_Muslim:, now why would 6 billion be worshipping a wrong god tell me
Sunni_Muslim:, there must be some thing right about it
Om: you honest and truly dont realize which verses in the Koran denounce jews AND christians
Sunni_Muslim:, ive read the arabictranslation of koran
Sunni_Muslim:, and some english
Om: the Christian scriptures say that in the last times.. the MAJORITY of the world will worship a false religion
Sunni_Muslim:, I dont speak arabic
Om: and Mohammed claims that the christian scriptures are from God...
Sunni_Muslim:, islam is a true riligion
Sunni_Muslim:, we denounce satan
Sunni_Muslim:, we respect moses and david
Om: well. this is getting both of us nowhere 90 miles an hour
Om: so... I had better go and do some things...
Sunni_Muslim:, well im sorry but at the end that wont be our riligion
Om: at least we can be civil to one another
Sunni_Muslim:, but just realize lastly that shiaism is the only twisted form of islam
Om: Salaam, Peace, Shanti.. take care
Sunni_Muslim:, which is not true islam
Om: I will concede that Sunni is preferable over Shiite
Sunni_Muslim:, have a nice day
Sunni_Muslim:, yes
Om: if I had to choose, id take sunni
Om: bye
Sunni_Muslim:, yes
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