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(12-9-98) Rapture
of course.. Jesus mentions that "no man knoweth the day nor the hour.. not even the angels in heaven.. only the Father.." or something like that.. and "it will come like a thief in the night".. so it seems rather pointless.. all this speculation about WHEN it will happen....THE RAPTURE.. and all that
ch12 I Corinthians ... spiritual gifts...well... I can tell you what I think.. about why St. Paul wrote those words....
but... remember... I was greek orthodox christian for 17 yrs.. but became a hindu for past 6
One of the most signifant things for me which st paul says...is... "I will be all things to all people... so that... by any manner.. some might be saved...."
I have studied the epistles.. during my life... (im 50 now)..and I get the sense... that St. Paul is a very.... ad hoc.. type of person...a jew to the jews.... a greek to the gentiles...even disagreeing with St. Peter about something seemingly so fundamental as circumcision...
so... if we look at this passage.... in I corinthians...first.. we must ask ourselves... WHAT ARE THE EPISTLES...really? well.. as their name suggests... they are LETTERS... some to individuals.. some to churchs
If you look at the various doctrines asserted about baptism.. faith.. being made "right with God"... UNITY... LOVE...and then you look at the motivations for writing the different epistles....you will realize that all of those benefits of faith.. baptizm.. love.. unity... WERE REALY ABSENT from those early churches... St paul had quite a bit of troubles on his hands.. trying to keep peace.. please everyone.. and hold everything together....
so.. when you look at some of the passages about GIFTS DIFFEREING....you realize.. that.. churches were filled with a lot of egotistical troublemakers.. trying to steal the show... upstage paul.. upstage jesus even ... with their holiness.. speaking in tongues...its human nature... no different from today.. as from 2000 yrs ago...
so... for me.... much of epistles.. though thoroughly admirable... a monument in religious literature of the world...still.. I would take it with a grain of salt.. in comparison with anything from the gospels....and.. paul.. as I said.. was very much ad hoc.... the end justifies the means....
and so have many religious leaders been that way.. over the centuries.. in many different religions...it greatly amuses me in romans when st. paul goes on and on about how terrible the pagan idolators are... wicked in nature.. needing to be "made right with god"....but... in another epistle.. he is scolding the entire church.. saying they are "WORSE THAN PAGANS".. because one of their members is having an affair with his mother-in-law
so.. if you scrutinize the epistles.. you will find... such internal inconsistancies...because.. if faith.. and baptism.. and the holy spirit.. really accomplishes what Paul says....well... why would all those different early churchs be having so many internal problems...
see Galatians 2:11 But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed. .... regarding Pauls disagreement with Peterin fact it is Pauls disagreement with Peter that Protestants use as one of their arguments agains Papal Supremacy.. and Papal infallibility...
with regard to the issue of abortion... (and I will say that I am against abortion... and even animal killing... im vegetarian)... but in the Laws of moses.... there is a very clear Mitzvah.. (commandment) which demonstrates that God did not reckon the fetus to have the status of human life....
the verse states... (it is in the Torah.. I can find the numbers eventually).. that if a man should injure a pregnant woman.. and cause the loss of the fetus.. he should pay a penalty fine....
but... if he causes also the death of the mother.. he should be put to death...
now.... in the Talmud... there is a decision which states... that.. if there is a difficulty in childbirth... if the child is more than half out of the womb.. it is to be considered as born... but if it never makes it more than half out.. alive.. it is not rekoned as having been born.. and of human status....
and yet... one sees in the Prophet Jeremiah... when God commands Jeremiah to be a prophet.. Jeremiah hesitates and says... "I am but a child".. and God...says.. "Before you were created.. I foreknew you.. and while you were in the womb.. I sanctified you...."
so here we see.. quite a different situation... in old testament.. where a fetus is sanctified as a prophet...
the same may be said of Samuel.. consecrated while still in the womb as a Nazirite..
and of course.. when Elizabeth.. pregnant with the fetus of John the Baptist.. meets Mary.. pregnant with Christ... the Gospels mention that the fetus of John the Baptist... in the womb of Elizabeth.. recognizes the presence of the Incarnate Logos in the foetus of Mary's womb... and leaps for joy...
so we see some very different beliefs demonstrated in the old and new testament...
its amusing to see how vengeful, ghoulish, and sadistic, some christians picture God as being.. projecting upon God.. some of the shortcomings of their own personalities...
that is really comical.. to hear someone say "dont generalize about christianity..".. when that is exactly what all christians want to do.. GENERALIZE.. and stamp everyone with the same cookie cutter mold of creed and belief... BUT THE DAMN FOOLS CANT AGREE with one another... what the definition of a CHRISTIAN IS!!!!!
(Ben says he cant see what relevance it has..the question of whether or not the Pope is a Christian)
Benjamine... is the Pope of Rome a christian??? just curious....good grief.. you sound like you think everyone should be christian.. and here is someone who obviously dedicate his life to being what he... in good conscience ... thought being a christian ment... AND YOU THINK IT HAS NO RELEVANCE
WELL THEN YOURE A BLITHERING NINNY
(pardon my french)
I suspect that one of the prerequsites to being christian is being a gullible moron
that is really comical.. to hear someone say "dont generalize about christianity..".. when that is exactly what all christians want to do.. GENERALIZE.. and stamp everyone with the same cookie cutter mold of creed and belief... BUT THE DAMN FOOLS CANT AGREE with one another... what the definition of a CHRISTIAN IS!!!!!
SO they all wind up damning each other,... and the rest of humanity.. to eternal torment and hell fire....
Yes.. I have met.. and even lived with and fed... elderly white bearded monks on their death bed.. from Mt. Athos.. who spent their whole lives in prayer.. and fasting... but Benjamine would probably hesitate to say that they are Christians...
benjamine... I suspect you are a lunatic and a crack-pot.. but thats just my opinion
(someone complains that you cant be certain if some individuals are Christian)
well. isnt that just the point.... the Pope may or may not be a christian.. BILLY GRAHAM may or may not be a christian.... BILL CLINTON may or may not be a christian....
well. thank you anonymous...
But.. how can we have world peace.. if we secretly or openly believe that our brother is deceived by satan or worshiping demons....
I mean... lets take Pope John Paul.. Mohandas Ghandi... Mother Theresa.. and the Dalai Lama.. as four randomly picked individuals ;)
dont that seem like relatively nice... decent people.... well intentioned
yet... a vast number of protestants.. if carefully questioned.. would be forced by their own beliefs.. to admit that those four people are deceived and deluded by satan.. and perhaps.. worshiping demons or false christs.. and have no hope of eternal salvation
so.. now ... what were you saying about world peace....???
so... if your religious beliefs FORCE you to consider four of the nicest people in this century.. as DEMONICALLY DELUDED.. well. how will you perceive and relate to the rest of humanity
yes... but.. go spend some time in the christian chats.. look at the tv evangelists..... and see the VAST NUMBER of people... for whom CHRISTIANITY means precisely that kind of judgemental hatred...
why do you thing that in Ireland.... Protestants and Catholics have been killing each other for decades...
(Ben complains that I made several SWEEPING statements)
well ben.. when I see trash and garbage... I get out my broom and make sweeping statements
but.. I see your still here ben
Benjamine... haveing read the statements you have made this morning.. I sincerely sincerly with all my heart believe.. that.. if Jesus were to return to earth this very moment.. and take a look into your heart... (if he didnt thow up first).. he would say those famous words in the Gospel... "I NEVER KNEW YOU"....
anything is a demon.. if you make it a demon.... the Pope.. Mother Theresa.. Ghandi.. the Dalai Lama.. they are demons .. if you make them demons in your mind
BEN you make the pharisee in the temple (in the parable of the publican).. you make him look like Mother Theresa
but if you make something sacred... well.. its holy....for you
the swastika is an ancient sacred symbol....
the fact that some lunatic like Hitler... chose it in the 1930s to symbolize something evil.. doesnt change the fact that it is still sacred for millions of hindus and buddhists
Ben you say morality isnt a matter of opinion.. but I notice you throwing an awful lot of your own half-baked opinions around the room.. and having the audacity to speak for Christ...
how can you be so blind, Ben, not to see how subjective your own morality is..
Ben you dont even have the courage to say what you truly think of the pope of rome... im sure you think he isnt a christian.. but.. yet if you spoke honestly.. you would be in disagreement with the largest MOST NUMEROUS DENOMINATION of all Christiandom...
perhaps I should have qualified my statement.. by saying that not everything is a candidate.. for becoming a sacred symbol... but then ben. I didnt realize your secred fondness for intercourse with animals
there is one prophet in the old testament.... and God COMMANDED him to take a prostitute as a wife... and since he was god fearing... he did just that.. so IN HIS PARTICULAR SITUATION.. marriage to a prostitute was a sacred fulfillment of gods word...
all peoples and religions regard murder as evil.. and murder of ones own child as particularly heinous... and yet.. when ABRAHAM was commanded to sacrifice his son.. he did not hesitate.. NOT BECAUSE HE FEARED GOd.. I dont think.. but because GOD is beyond good and evil....
in Jesus own words.. God could raise children to Abraham from a stone...
so.. if God actually commanded someone to do anything... no matter how heinous its outward appearance.. THAT THING WOULD BECOME HOLY AND SACRED...
I think one very significant aspect of Islam.. is the belief.... perhaps stated in the Hadith.... but perhaps in the Koran too.. that.. Allah... foreknew and predestines each soul to salvation and damnation before the universe or any souls were ever created....
and when Allah was asked... "why bother to even put the souls into creation.. if their salvation and damnation is fore-ordained"... Allah answered...
"If I put the souls of the damned... directly in torment... they would forever be complaining 'But if YOU HAD ONLY GIVEN US A CHANCE.. we would have repented.. and submitted to ISLAM".....
So... Allah said... He placed them in the world.. to give them the opportunity to confirm their unworthiness.. and increase their condemnation....
(Someone asks if Allah was one of the Apostoles)
Allah... is simply the Arabic word for GOD...
even Arabic speaking Christians.. use the word Allah when they speak of God in CHristian terms
Ben...why are you in here preaching the Gospel.... did not Jesus say... "Do not cast your pearls before swine..."... and do you not consider (from all the things you have said)...at least me.. to be a swine... so ben.. are you not disobeying the words of Jesus??????
the judgement of God is a mystery to man....
look at the parable of the workers in the vinyard.. some working from early morning, through the heat of the day... others coming only at the final hour.. yet all received the same penny
but they received the penny FOR WORKS... not faith... faith just got em in the door ;)
the samaratans were well known to be HERETICS.. of their day... they rejected the books of the Prophets.. (yet Jesus read from Isaiah in the temple).. they refused to worhip in the Temple in Jerusalem.. only considering Mt . HOreb to be holy (where Moses received the Laws).. yet the good Samaratan was justified BY HIS WORKS... of love and compassion.. and his doctrinal beliefs... and hence his faith.. were of no consequence
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