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I get really angry sometimes when Christians and Muslims jump into a chat room and start condemning Hindus and Buddhists... and saying theirs is the only true faith.. and that we will rot in hell in eternal torment...
Sometimes.. I like to give the Muslims a hard time.. by telling them that the Kabbah stone in mecca is a SivaLingam... (which just happens to be what I actually believe)...
And I quote the 5th Surah of Koran.. verse 48 (or so)... where Allah says... "If I had wanted to .. I could have made everyone one religion.. but for my own reasons.. I chose to make people DIFFERENT religions (including HIndu)..SO if you must compete with one another.. compete in doing good works...
So... taken by itself.. that Koranic verse implies that it is Allah's will that some be Hindu...
And then.. when Christians come into the room and criticize Hindu beliefs and practices.. I point out that they are cannibals who symbolically kill God daily and eat His Flesh and drink His Blood... you see.. Christians think that Hindu beliefs are strange or evil.. but they never look at themselves in a mirror...
(a Christian says: I am a Christian and I find your words deeply offensive... please do not say them...)
Well.. that is good...if you feel DEEPLY OFFENDED, now you know how Hindus feel with the cruel things that Christians and Muslims say about them...
It's a perfectly valid impression for a non christian to have of the Eucharist..(i.e. that it is symbolic ritualistic cannibalism) especially in the Roman or Greek mass or liturgy...
It is amusing.. when Christians and Muslims come into a chat room insulting Hindus left and right... to see them stop dead in their tracks... with criticisms that they have never encountered before... and aren't sure how to answer
Actually.... young hindus have thanked me for showing them how to defend themselves against the vicious attacks of Christians and Moslems
But... here is a good case in point... Christians talk like they are monotheistic and as though Hindus are polytheistic.. but in reality the Trinity is very polytheistic (and an abomination) in the eyes of Jews and Muslims...
And.... Hindus see God as One... but having three aspects.. the Hindu trinity of Brahman, Vishnu, Shiva..... and if anything.. Hindus are Ekanotheistic , a term coined by Max Muller...
Jewish Rabbinical tradition allows for the possibility of reincarnation.. if something is left undone in ones life.. but does not stress it as a frequent occurence
Ekanotheism means ... Hindus believe God is One... (as stated in many Upanisads).. but.. in addition to a Hindu Trinity.. God can manifest in many aspects simultaneously... male/female, human/animal, inanimate object/nameless-formless
So Ekanotheism means that.. which ever one of those many aspects of God you choose to worship at a given time.. you treat that form as "the one true God"...
(someone keeps pestering me with the question ... 'What is a Sivalingam')
Look, a Sivalingam is a stone... set upright.. and worshiped as an ANICONIC image of God (Shiva)
If you look at Old Testament.. when Jacob dreams of the Ladder to heaven.. and wakes up.. he sets up a stone and anoints it with oil... this is worship using SIVALINGAM
And... you know... I'm not trying to be nasty .. when I say that some people perceive the Christian Eucharist (God's Body and Blood) as a form of cannibalism...or the Cross as worshiping a dead man on a stick...I'm just showing the plain truth and fact that Christianity is no more or less odd or immune to criticism than Hinduism... or any other religion...
Let me illustrate with a true story...
I used to work at a place that had a lot of orthodox and conservative jews...
So one day.. a group of elderly jewish women volunteer workers were sitting at a table having lunch and talking about their grandchildren...
So... one Jewish woman was praising her granddaughter because... when they walked by a Christian Church with a big Crucifix.. she looked up at her Jewish parents and asked.. "Why would anyone want to worship a dead man on a stick?"....
Now.. of course.. the very phrase "dead man on a stick" is probably deeply offensive to any Christian.. but the Jewish granny was proud of her granddaughter for seeing things in such a Jewish fashion...
Now.. the Jewish lady didn't think any Christians were listening.. she didn't want to offend Christians.. but the plain honest truth is.. to non-Christians... Christians worship a dead man on a stick.. and symbolically kill God and cannibalize God's flesh and blood...
In fact in the first century,,.. in Rome and Greece... non-Christians were quite upset with rumors and misunderstandings over what this Eucharist practice was... there were rumours that Christians killed babies and ate them
You're missing the whole point... to the non-Christian.. thats what they see in Christianity.. Hindus dont do any of the evil or stupid things that are said about them.. but people outside Hinduism don't see the spiritual reality of Hindu faith...
Just like people outside Judaism and Islam.. see a bunch of people preoccupied with cutting away the foreskin from the male's penis...
Thats a perfectly true characterization of circumcision... to someone outside Judaism and Islam
So Christians kill God and eat Him and worship a dead man on a stick.. Hindus worship stones and Cows ... and Jews and Muslims are preoccupied with cutting their penises
But.. you see I was Greek Orthodox Christian for 17 yrs.. and in a monastery for 2 years.. I was Korean Zen Buddhist for 2 yrs.. and I am Hindu for 6 years.. so I can look at things spiritually from the inside.. and see similarities.. and not differences
You know.. Gandhi wrote a wonderful autobiography... and Gandhi mentions that the first time a westerner asked if the Shivalingam was a penis/phallus... he said... "I never though about it sexually until a [filthy-minded] westerner spoke about it in that fashion"
A non-Christian could look at a Christian worshiping or praying in front of a cross and see an almost naked dead man on a stick.. and make assumptions about circumcision and phallus worship.. but of course those perceptions would be inaccurate
In fact... although Christians criticize Hindus for being idolaters.. non Roman Catholic Christians criticize Roman Catholics for being idolaters because of statues and crosses.. and yet Roman Catholic is the single largest Christian denomination...
And then there are very strictly iconoclastic Protestants who criticize those Protestants who even use the symbol of a cross in church...
And yet if we look at Old Testament.. and God's instructions to Moses for Tabernacle.. we see God commands that images of Seraphim be places over the tabernacle.. with very large wing spans....
So we see the God of the Old Testament commanding Moses to make certain images to be used in worship...
And... if you read the Old Testament book of Ezekiel and read prophet Ezekiel's vision of God as a flying chariot with flaming wheels and 3 animal faces and one human face.. why that is a very Hindu vision of God indeed!!!!!
And if you look at the end of the Prophet Isaiah... you will see that an end time of restoration is described in which all are vegetarians.. even the lion eats grass.. and ahimsa or non-violence is practiced by all .. even the lion and lamb and the poisonous snakes. And Hinduism states "Ahimsa is the HIGHEST form of Dharma."
I'm not preaching.. Hindus have no vested interest in what religion another takes up
I'm just chatting nicely and sharing some of my perceptions.. which I think may be unique for others....
Well.. I am back from my stroll in scroll land.. the only question I saw from Tamborine.. was the one about the Sivalingam stone.. which I eventually answered in some detail.....
But... what I did also.. just now.. was scroll back in my own comments buffer.. and I cut and pasted all of my comments into a word document...
So.. now. .. I can take my side of the conversation and make it one more page in my website....
I guess I have one comment for those who took (understandable) offense and the mere mention of the notion of a crucifix being a dead man on a stick.. or the body and blood of the eucharist being cannibalism.. ...
I had to choose to become a Hindu in the face of the worlds criticisms about idolatry.. and widow burning.. and drinking cow pee.. and etc etc.. all of the other bad things that are said about Hinduism.. and that I would burn in eternal hell.. and that I worship satan...
Well.. for my own reasons.. I searched Hinduism and found what for me is the true spirituality.. and I have found the courage to be what I am in spite of daily attacks from the world.. and I think I am a better person spiritually because of it...
So.. if anyone truly wants to be Christian... or Roman Catholic.. or Jehovah's Witness.. or ... Mormon,... or whatever...
Then even if the whole world should say to you that a crucifix is a dead man on a stick.. or the body and blood of the eucharist being cannibalism.. ...
Well. you should learn to have the courage to persist in your faith.. just as I did in mine.. and you will be a better Christian.. or Roman Catholic.. or 7th day adventist...
But dont whine or complain if someone should bring perfectly fair criticisms or perceptions of Christianity to your attention.. just because you dont like them.... because the Jews and the Hindus have had to put up with that from Christians and Muslims for centuries
(a Roman Catholic says.. "Some day I'd like to have a long conversation with you about these things.")
Yes, thats fine, we may have a conversation one day, except just do me one big favour...
Dont try to make me a Christian.. cause I was in a monastery for 2 yrs.. and Greek Orthodox for 17 yrs.. and I have read the entire Old and New testaments together with the apocrypha several times...
But sure.. if you just want to discuss some points...
One thing that I like about my current faith.. is that.. there is no eternal hell.. there is no devil... and I may join together in worship with any other religion without the notion that I am denying my own faith or apostatizing or falling into heresy... or worshiping satan... I really like that feeling.. it makes me much more comfortable
In the 17 yrs that I was Greek Orthodox Christian.. and these were the "Hasidic Jews" of Orthodox Christianity.. not the "liberal" Greek State New Calendar Church... for 17 yrs they taught me how everyone else was WORSHIPING SATAN....
Roman Catholics worshiped satan,.. Protestants.. Jews, Moslems.. even the New Calendar Greek Orthodox who didn't believe as these Greeks believed.. were all deceived and deluded by that ANGEL OF LIGHT (Lucifer) who had the power (as St Paul suggests)... to appear as a FALSE CHRIST
I AM amused when certain Protestants run around shouting "confess Jesus as your personal Saviour and you will be SAVED".....
SO.. first I says "I wish one day someone would explain to me what an IMPERSONAL saviour might be...." ;)
Then I ask them (if they aren't Roman Catholic) my famous "Is the Pope Christian" question....
Well. either they are honest and answer flat out "NO the Pope is not Christian"... or they are dishonest and say... "I cannot judge the soul or intentions of another human being"...
so then I say.. "Well. then you must be incapable of finding another fellow christian to worship with.. since you just said you cannot judge the sincerity of another persons confession of Christ as their saviour"
But then I say.. "You make it sound so simple.. just confess Christ and you are saved.. but did not the Pope surely confess Jesus as his saviour.. so why is HE not saved.. or Mother Theresa for that matter...
And then a terrific argument I just came up with last week..."If confessing Christ as your saviour means you are SAVED.. and cannot back slide" then why do the Epistles of Paul go on and on about False teachers.. would not someone who is ETERNALLY SAVED.. be immune to false teachings???
And it seems from the Epistles of Paul.. that from the very beginning .. all the Churches at Ephesus.. Corinth, etc. were always on the verge of plunging into error and heresy.. yet in Romans Paul says.. "Oh idolaters are SO BAD.. you have to be MADE RIGHT with God".. but later he tell one church they are WORSE THAN IDOLATERS... because one member is having sex with his mother-in-law....
I mean.. doesn't the contradictory nature of the New Testament ever bother people at all....
(someone, who is probably agnostic, comments.. "These are all interpretations of men")
You're no fun,. your probably not a devout Christian.. I want a devout Christian to suddenly quiver in a fit of dialectical turmoil and "dark night of the soul"... from listening to these arguments.
you know ... one day I was in a long heated argument and debate with a Christian who kept attacking me.. and threatening me with eternal torment... etc etc...
"Look I am 50 yrs old... I have read the entire Old Testament/New Testament/ Apocrypha. as well as big chunks of Anselm, Augustine Aquinas Luther Calvin... etc etc... St.John Chrysostome.. Basil the Great.. Gregory the Theologian.. the Philokalia... etc etc. etc...
I continued saying.. "I am perfectly aware of my choices being Hindu.. and when I die should God confront me.. and tell me I was wrong after all.. I am perfectly happy to pay the price of eternal torment and suffering...
... I continued... "But.. to be perfectly honest with you.. if I met God tomorrow .. and He told me I was wrong.. and that He really is the God of Vengence and punishment.. and eternal hell... I would decline heaven and choose to be in hell next to Gandhi.... (and Mother Theresa.. if I am arguing with a Protestant Fundie)....
If I go to sleep tonight.. and in the middle of the night I wake up.. and Mohammed is there hitting me with a baseball bat... telling me to submit to the will of Allah... well.. I will dust off my Koran tomorrow and start reading...
And.... if in the middle of the night.. I wake up.. and Jesus is there with a baseball bat.. hitting me.. and telling me to become a Roman Catholic.. well.. I will set my alarm for 5 am.. and be at the next 6 am mass...
But as it happens.. 5 yrs ago.. I had a dream in which God came as a triangular cloud .. with Jesus and Buddha and Krishna .. in no particular order.. swirling inside the cloud..... and told me several very Hindu things....
And at least at age 50.. having been raised with no religion.. I made an honest effort to find out what religions were about..
Of course im being sarcastic about the baseball bat... even the Hindu dream with the cloud.. there was no baseball bat.. it wasn't necessary.... the dream was a shock enough (and now... I leave the Religion Chat room and enter private chat in PM with Tamborine)
Tamborine: I found that you were employing quite a few negative images when you were speaking about Christianity.; was that on purpose? for shock value?
Sitaram: What I said I said very politely .. but the images are no more negative than that a Hindu hears every day....
Tamborine: But do two wrongs make a right?
Sitaram: Didn't Jesus say "Blessed are you when men shall revile you and say all manner of evil against you FALSELY for my sake..."..... I think you need to.. #1 .. listen to what Jesus said.. and #2... try to acquire the courage of a Hindu or Buddhist or Sikh....
Tamborine: Sure, but I am merely addressing your distaste for things said to you about your beliefs yet saw you do the same, in my opinion, on Christianity.
Sitaram: If is a free country.. and I have reasons for saying what I say in the way that I say it.. and I am as much in my rights as the Christians or Muslims who attack Buddhists, Hindus, Sikhs, etc...
Tamborine: I am in no way criticizing you other than to question why you would use negative imagery if you hate it so much when done to your own faith?... I am interested in your views; nothing more, nothing less..
Sitaram: Well, .. if what I said bothers you.. then launch a campaign with all your fellow Christian sects... to improve the way they talk to Hindus, Buddhists etc., etc. and when you have successfully reformed them.. come back and we will talk
But, here is an interesting question...
Do you thing it is a good idea to try to eliminate world poverty..????
Give me your honest candid answer...
Tamborine: Well though I dont think its really possible, its worth trying
Sitaram: Ok... fair enough answer... but now.. consider the following points...
#1.. when Moses gave the laws concerning cleaning of fields.. he added "for the poor shall always be with you:
When Jesus was criticized concerning the precious ointment. He also said "for the poor shall always be with you"
Now... imagine that you are suddenly back in ancient times...
and you see before you the poor man Lazarus (in Jesus Parable)
And he is covered with sores... and the dogs lick his sores...
But you have just decided to follow Jesus advice... you have sold all you own and you decide to give it to Lazarus... so you can take up your cross and follow Jesus...
In fact... the money you give Lazarus... is sufficient for him to buy the house nest door to the rich man and to hire servants of his own...
QUESTION:.... Do you still think that.. when Lazarus dies... that he will be comforted in the Bosom of Abraham ??? ...Now that you have performed the ultimate charity to make Lazarus a wealthy man.. and turn yourself into a pauper....
...Well...what is your opinion???
Tamborine: I Honestly dont know the answer to that question.
Sitaram:But..do you not think that it is an excellent question????
Tamborine: For I think that is a matter between God and Lazarus... but yes it is a most excellent question.....
Sitaram: Have you ever thought about things in this way before????
Tamborine: It has been commanded to let none judge but God.... I always ask questions.. and I always will....
Sitaram: Aha.. a very interesting answer... a matter between God and Lazarus and yet.. if that is so... why did Jesus reveal those things to us....
Tamborine: I tend to irritate people that way.. Hope it doesn't bother you.... I am answering your questions honestly.. ... you see... to me the entire book of the Bible may perhaps be a fantasy... and inasmuch is not important.... I've spent years tracking down and reading the part of the bible which were cut out... and they make me wonder who wrote them and by whose authority they were cut..
Sitaram: It is written by Solomon... in Proverbs... a word of Wisdom.. fitly spoken is like an apple of God in a silver fitting (a fine filagree screen of silver).... at a distance... it looks like a silver apple...as we approach more closely... we see a glint.. a hint ... a sparkle of gold... when we come very close.. and contemplate... we finally comprehend its TRUE NATURE... a GOLD APPLE inside an elaborate silver screen...
And in comprehending it...we are transformed in the process...
Someone a while back was attacking the Roman Catholic doctrine of Purgatory... in this chat room...
So I typed an elaborate defense of Purgatory... from a Roman Catholic point of view...
And it is now in my website...
Tamborine: I will see it there eventually then... I personally have defended, to the best of my ability, many faiths....
Sitaram: I have a long interesting original...writing ... around page 32 or so.. entitled .."The Gift of Faith"... which is pure eastern Orthodox Greek theology.
Tamborine: I will for one, never say I know the truth and someone else doesn't!
Sitaram: In my mind.. Roman Catholics and eastern Orthodox represent the noblest and most authentic aspects of Christianity... and some of the Protestant fundamentalist and Charismatics... represent Christianity in its basest, most perverted form.... of course.. if you are Roman catholic... you find my words vaguely pleasing....
.. and if you were... a fundamentalist protestant or Charismatic.. you would be deeply offended...
Tamborine: I personally feel the the Orthodox and RCC are expressions of some of the best and the worst of the Christian faith....
But I have not found a faith yet that attracts me strong enough to convert and say other than I am a Roman Catholic... even though I am not in total agreement with everything they teach or hold to be true...
Sitaram: Well... when you say worst.. I think you mean ... human frailties.. as St. Paul said.. God puts His treasures of Gold in Vessels of Clay..." .... and the 20th century problem of the CAFETERIA CATHOLIC....
or perhaps it was there throughout all the centuries....
Tamborine: Yes, that's admittedly me....
Sitaram: Oh... I will have a little of this.. and... no thanks NONE OF THAT...
Tamborine: And, Yes, I think it has always been there, and in more faiths than just the RCC.... I have Greek Orthodox friends who do the same in their faith for example.... and Jewish....
Sitaram: Sometimes.. I visit an Episcopal Church.. which is the only one which will accept me for exactly what I am... accept me to Communion I mean...... I told several Episcopal Priests.. that I ... am baptized Greek.. but.. interfaith in my beliefs....
Tamborine: I feel just as comfortable in a synagogue or methodist church as I do in the Catholic one...
Sitaram: .. and they answered... so long as you believe it is the body and blood.... which is pretty open minded of them....
Tamborine: I see that "glint of gold" in all of creation OM....
Sitaram: but... what can I do.. when a cloud comes to me with Jesus and Buddha and Krsna.. and says..
"Although I am in every religion... I am beyond all religions.. beyond all dualities...
Tamborine: You have no choice but to agree....
Sitaram: I even go to a Mosque sometimes... and I like Koran and Islam least of all....but i went to a large turkish Mosque in Brooklyn... and did WUDU (Ritual washing).. AND went inside... and there were a hundred muslims worshiping... so I followed with them.. and bowed but on the front wall of the mosque... a white tile wall.. is blue kalligraphic writing of Koranic verses.... but in one of the Kalligraphies.. I see an ancient symbol of Shiva.. and
In another I see an ancient symbol of Vishnu...
And as I looked at the tile wall... with all the Kalligraphy... for a moment.. I no longer saw the wall.... instead I saw the earth... and the oceans... and mountains and clouds.. and ... all things....
The image lasted for only a moment,... and then .. I saw... simply... THE HOLY NAME.... this is hard to explain... but the Sikhs say... Every Name is His... His Name is Allah, His name is Govinda.. His name is Ram... even the muslims pray a rosary of 99 beads for the 99 names or qualities of God found in the Koran... Merciful, Just... even qualities like Deceiver...
Tamborine: Do you think that most faiths are but fragments of the original..? ...polarized pieces???
Sitaram: Yes, I do...
Tamborine: So do I....
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