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Please join in the discussion at the Message Board!
(Total activity, all pages, all sites, in page reloads, since 9/21/2000)
one day a few years ago.. I was on a long subway ride to Astoria... and the man next to me was reading Arabic... so I said "Oh the must be about the Koran"... so he very nicely offered to help me become Islamic.. and said "you know.. if you do this it will change your whole life..."... so I thanked him for having such a well meaning interest in my immortal soul and well-being...
so.. when he got of the train... this christian lady.. sitting across from us , zoomed into the seat next to me... and she said "WELL... if you dont what to go to HIS church... OUR church is have a POT LUCK supper next week
(someone asks: Why do the Zoroastrians (Parsis) place their dead in a tower.. for birds to eat?)
the vulture thing.. the parsis... those are called the "Towers of Silence"...
if one reads the Avestas of Zoroaster... one sees an ENORMOUS preocupation... concern for "clean" and "Unclean"... similar to Hebrew concepts of Kosher... and also Hindu concepts of "clean".... but Parsi scriptures.. take it to an extreme... just like Jains take non-violence to extreme.. with masks and whisk brooms... not to hurt insects
one day.. a biologist.. was asked about his opinion concerning GOd... and he answered saying... "Well... whatever God is... I know one thing for CERTAIN... God was inordinately fond of BEETLES (the insect not the singing group).. because there are more species of beetles on the planet than all other species put together"... so..everyting has a purpose... EVEN FUNDIES ;)
every year.. I march in Manhattan.. (or walk or hobble)... in the Hare Krishna Ratha Yatra procession... and at the end.. there is an outdoor picknic... and I met a man RAISED AS A MUSLIM... in Morocco... who had become a very devout Hare Krishna... and he was IN HIS 40'S.. and seemed very sane and educated... but I was astounded by such a radical transition
opinion maker... did you visit my web page => http://members.aol.com/sitaram/page001.htm
first.. and formost... Lord Krsna... in his form as a cow-herd boy with a flute.. is the Primal Personality of the God head... and even Maha-VISHNU... is a primary expansion of Lord Krsna
whereas most hindus believe that God is one... with a Trinity of Brahman Vishnu Shiva... and Avatars (incarnations) come from Vishun....(like Ram Krsna and even Jesus) ... Krsna says that He incarnates from time to time... so Hindus cant honestly deny that Jesus is God
so... Hare Krishna.... believe in celibacy... even within marriage.... sex is allowed only once per month on fertile day... when a pregnancy is desired.. once pregnancy is achieved.. sexual activity must cease...
and... I actually know young married couples who successfully practice this
look... im just explaining what they believe.... the reality of human fertility has nothing to do with this conversation... their practices evolved from the 1600's amongst Bengali speak peoples... where Chaitanya... preached his Vaishnav beliefs
interestingly enough... a contemporary of Chaitanya... who founded the Sampradaya (lineage) which became Hare Krishna today... was Vallabh.. who also founded a totally different Ksna worshiping lineage... where sexual activity is very frequent
and... there is an historical account of Vallabh and Chaitanya meeting... and... needless to say... they didnt see eye to eye.....
and... each lineage considers their founder to be a form of Incarnation of Lord Krsna
ok.. so.. Hare Krsna is very strict vegetarian.... and even avoid certain foods like Garlic, Onion., Carrot (i think) and Mushroom.. considered as either Tamasic or Rajasic or offensive to Lord Krsna
also.. very strick Vaishnavs (hare krsna)... only eat what a Devotee has prepaired... because they feel that the one who prepares the food.. INVESTS THEIR CONSCIOUSNESS into what they prepare....
now... strict vaishnavs... only eat what has first been offered ceremonially to Lord Krsna... (which you could do anywhere).. and for them... every meal is like Holy Communion... (wine and wafer)... its the same concept as christian eucharist actually
except.. vaishnavs dont talk about food being "body and blood"
now.. hare krishna (vaishnavs)... believe that... when MahaMantra (hare krisna....hara rama)... is chanted... that the Lord actually incarnted within the sound of the Mantra...
vaishnavs make a solemn vow upon initiation to chant the mantra 16 rounds of 108 beads..... which I think is 1728 times per day... which takes from 2 to three hours per day
oddly enought.. when I was 23 I was in a greek orth xtian monastery for 13 months... and every night... we said 33 prayer ropes (rosarys) of 100 knots (beads ) ... the Jesus prayer... "lord Jesus Christ SOn of God have mercy on me"... and that took 2.5 to 3 hours per day
i dont think one can separate beliefs from practices.... hmm.. interesting thought
but it has something to do with "if ya want to talk the talk,... ya gotta walk the walk"....
plus... you gotta realize .. I know so many different religions.... I have to switch gears... and try to bring all the Vaishnav stuff "on -line".....
anyway... hare krishna folks have literally hundreds of books in print about every aspect of their life and beliefs and practice.. and how to convert... proselytize people....
there is even a 1000 page handbook.. about how to run a... religious living center... I will coin term krsna kabbutz.... and how young people should gear themselfs to the older potential convert... (who cant dance or sit cross legged lotus
im gonna take a stroll in SCROLL land and see whats been said.. since I cant think and type and read everything at same time
then I will try to remember more about hare krsna beliefs versus practices
well... im back from SCROLL LAND... and I tried to read over any conversation I missed.... IDOLATRY.. I noticed you remark... which I told you that the Blue Cowherd Boy form of Krsna is believed to BE the primal form and nature of God... Idolatry.. you remarked..."that doesnt tell me much about beliefs"... BUT THAT IS.. one of their most underlying beliefs... if you cant grasp that... then... perhaps you should ask me specific questions...and I can understand what IS meaningful to YOU
i will share with you...whoever is interested... my own thoughts.. and experiences about sexuality... that does seem to be a very popular topic in the room.. and in any chat room
i am 50 now,... male
i didnt have my first experience sexually until I was 30... and I maried that woman... and we stayed married for 13 years....
there is an amusing line in one of e.e. cummings poems "Marriage is the sure cure for masturbation"....
i was in a monastery at age 23...
anyway... all through my 20's... I thought... oh.. if I were married... and having sex.. my thoughts would not be preoccupied... that is sex would not intrude and interrupt study...etc
but... when I have my first sexual experience at age 30.. and married that woman... and started having regular sex... it didnt make lust go away... it make it ten times worse.....
i was really shocked when I realized that I was experienceing more lust after loss of virginity.. than before....
well. the marriage lasted 13 years... and most of them were very happy.... with all the sex I wanted.... and sadly ended.. in divorce
but... several years after the divorce... I was walking along a street in manhattan one day.. and thinking about things... as I usually do.... when suddenly I was struck with a powerful realization.... I saw all the 13 yrs of marriage... and sex.. pass before my eyes... and I realized that it was like "the ghost of a dream"... as if it had never been.. with regard to satisfying my cravings ... my desires.. I realized that satisfaction is, in some sense, an illusion
i have had some health problems.. which make me more and more aware.. conscious of the inevitablility of death.... and in eastern spirituality... acceptance of death... meditation upon death.. is not something morbid.. but.. has a spiritual value which helps in developing detachment
i guess I will say this... I knew about a dozen people.. personally.. who took monastic vows... lasted 10 15 or even 20 yrs.. and then left monastic life.. I realize I made the right decision by not taking vows.. and I realize... had I never had sex and marriage.. I would be even more tormented by the curiosity.. and the thought that I had "missed out".. which is a symtom of me essentially weak faith...
i dont really feel like talking about my health.. I mention that I have had "problems" simply because such experiences are essential to an individual... to wake up to the reality.. thay they wont live forever... which is a difficult thought for somone in their teens to grasp... although even small children grasp mortality intellectually... it is only when you feel your body going.. that you begin to address it emotionally... spiritually
but it doesnt really matter.. whether I die tomorrow.. or in one year.. or if I have 10 years... or even 30 years.... if I am to die 30 years from now.. all the joys... pleasures.. ice creme cones... orgasms.. whatever ones definition of pleasures are.. will be the same ghost of a memory... as the pleasures of my first 50 years....
what does remain.. through it all... what isnt a "ghost of a shadow of a dream".... are things ... thoughts... realizations that one arrives at... and retains.. as ones own... like the Beatitudes of the Sermon on Mount (Ghandis favorite)... or certain verses in the Gita... or the stuff in my web page... that stuff remains... the pleasures are empty... and also the sufferings .. of past injuries...illnesses... they are a ghost of a memory too...
i noticed the remark "ah.. thats what makes life incredible"... and it made me think.... of the day when I realized that.... even if one is in a hospice.. in agony with cancer.. lets say... that there is still something "incredible" "miraculous" in simply having consciousness... "thoughts"... free will to turn those thoughts in any direction.. even in a concentration camp.. or a prison cell... if only we can stop to look and realize.. what we are.. what a miracle our own consciousness is...
but... somehow.. to be able to be in a hospice... with the pain... and still savour that "miracle of consciousness" "of being".. or to be in solitary confinement.. or a concentration camp.. and still savour that miracle... somehow it involves.... detachment from pleasure and pain... sukkha and dukkha in sanskrit, hindi, the Gita
i feel that,... somehow.. every religion.. whether Islam, Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism, Sikhism, Zoroatrian.. all those paths.. some how address that miracle of being... and detachment from pleasure and pain... but it is curious for me how only the Gita addreses it so explicitly... almost as if it is an "owners manual" for the soul
but I realize... I sense .. that many people are more comfortable.. more suited.. for one reason or another... to Islam... or Christianity... or Judaism... that I would be foolish to try to convince everyone to "read the Gita"... or do this or that Hindu practice..
i was able to spend to years working with some orthodox Jews... and I was able to engage in long Talmudic conversations... and I came to understand enought of Judaism and TOrah and Talmud... to feel , experience.. the "sparks"... which Hasids mention.. the "flashes" which Maimonides mentions in the GUide for purplexed... during my conversations with Jews
one day, I went to visit a mosque in manhattan.. and a very nice middle aged man in a business suit was standing outside.. waiting for prayers to begin.. and he was saying his rosary.. with the 99 beads (for the 99 "names" of Allah,.. in Koran, Beneficent, Merciful, Deceiver
so... I struck up a conversation with him... and asked him about the meaning of the rosary.. the prayers... when he saw I had some knowledge of Islam.. and Koran.. he became very happy.... and began to ask me .. what is my religion.. would I like to convert...
as he was talking with me... asking me what my religion was... and if I would like to become islamic... explaining his joy in his faith... I kept looking into his face... and suddenly I began to see the faces of all the holy people that I had ever know... in many religions... hindu monks... greek orth monks and nuns... zen masters... protestants, catholics... and I suddenly realized ... I was seeing the same thing in all those faces...
it was a palpable, sensible, perceivable.. sanctity,.. peace.. its hard to put into words... but.. those people I had met.. had all "arrived" at that "place" in their lives... although they had travelled there by different paths...
and... it wasnt really something one could get... or learn.. simply from a book... you would have to ... live with those people.. eat what they ate , do what they did,.. worship and pray with them... become them... it was something very... subjective... experiential... which cannot be conveyed to others in words.. without the shared experience
well.. this has been a very good chat for me this morning.. im glad I came... thank you all for your time... your patience... im certain I probably annoy many of you.. but .. that is not my intention...
bye bye.... idolatry... I will scroll back right now.. and look at your comments... I did try very hard to answer your question about Hare Krishna.... I cant type and think the sorts of things that I type and think.. and read comments as well... and .. I feel a deep need to .. think these thoughts... and put them into words.. and.. strangely enough.. this religion chat room helps a lot... makes it possible
i think that Tich is somewhere in the same league with Ghandi.. Mother THeresa... Dali Lama... RamaKrishna... each one of those is doing the same thing.. in a different way
the lust question... (a good question by the way).... its a very difficullt thing to deal with to control... I think is only just beginning to subside... and illness and suffering and aging process are instrumental in that... in my web page.. on page 3 or 4.. entitled "Have you made any Spiritual Progress".. a question someone emailed.. I talked about how much or little progress I think I have made from these things.. and what progress means..
living with the people... an interesting question you raise.... Buddhist conversion is recitation three times of the Triple Gem... The BUddha is my shelter (refuge sharanam)... the Dharma (Law Mitzvahs RIghteousness) is my Refuge (shelter)... and the SANGA (community or congretation ... living together) is my SHELTER (refuge)
Idolatry... I see from your latest remark.. that you are one of those people.. who points a finger at others and says... but YOU DO THIS... you havnt done that... YOU BELIEVE THIS.. you DONT BELIEVE THat... tell me Idolatry... Have I EVEN ONCE asked you anything .. or anyone in here.. any question about their age or gender or religion.. or whether they eat this or dont eat that... do you evere EVER notice me asking those types of questions to anyone???
namely.. that I am able to chat for hours... literally hours.. purly on religious topics. .. drawing on many differents scriptures... practices.. faiths... and there are always one or two people who stick around and take an interest (but never more than one or two)... and I never need to question anyone (except to clarify their questions or their background).... what conclusion can you draw from that
actually what I am doing... is working very hard on this web page of mine to collect some of these conversations.. so that the few people who are interested.. my read and think about some of these topics... without the necessity of my typeing the same things over and over
well.. the point im trying to make is... that it is somewhat pointless.. how everyone argues.. and attacks and critices one another and says... I pray more than you do.. my mantra is better than your mantra... my Krsna can lick your Jesus AND your Mohammad... ... one may chat converse.. for hours on end.. without engaging in personlity or gender or ad hominum
one day.. I was walking around... doing my usual chores...
and a sudden realizatiion came to me.. namely.. that no matter what
ones personal condition or state or situation or sinfulness might be... that THE VERY REALIZATION THAT THERE IS HOLINESS, SANCTITY, the numinous... and that is is MUCH TO BE DESIRED... is itself .. the BEGINNING OF SANCTITY..
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