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Please join in the discussion at the Message Board!
(Total activity, all pages, all sites, in page reloads, since 9/21/2000)
Lotus: QUESTION: hypothetically, there is a person who is fully realized... then what need has he/she for anything-- marriage, work, etc?
Sitaram: If they are fully realized... why were they reborn
Sitaram: And if they are fully realized... why do they not simply shed the body
Lotus: This hypothetical person became fully realized after birth, while in his/her present life, while in the body
Sitaram: I would know to much.. if you check my web page.... you will see what little I know.. and how much I do not know
Lotus: Ok, then how about this... why does marriage exist at all? is it for merely biological purposes...let's say that man gained FULL mastery over his biological urges, then would marriage still exist?
Sitaram: I suppose... I must confess.. that .. personally ,... I have some doubts about the concept of jivanmukti.... I talk a little bit about that in the web site
Sitaram: Well.. let me answer in this way.... in the Gita... Lord Krsna says...
Sitaram: "out of thousands of people, hardly one seeks ME...
Sitaram: And out of the thousands who do seek me,... hardly one comes to know my true nature...
Sitaram: So... by Lord Krishna's own words.... at any given time... only a small percentage of humanity even seeks the Lord....
Sitaram: But... you speak as though ALL individuals would gain such mastery... to be Goswamis... Bramhacharis
Lotus: But that doesn't answer the question, for i'm sure there exist a good number, though few, people who have control over their biological urges... so what is the purpose for these people to marry, procreate, etc... is there some HIGHER PURPOSE fulfilled by marriage, and what?
Sitaram: But.... stop and thing.... if all of humanity could achieve such a state... what need would there be for any rebirth
Sitaram: Oh... I see your question....
Sitaram: Hmm.... if someone is a goswami... would there be a purpose in a marriage with no conjugal union
Sitaram: Actually... there have been a few such marriages in history
Lotus: I mean to say, is there not something truly beautiful and pure and Godly about the relationship between man and woman
Sitaram: But are you talking about a marriage in which celibacy is observed
Sitaram: Or... are you somehow saying that this "realized" individual... would still marry.. and engage in sexual relations....for some "higher" spiritual motive
Lotus: Yes...
Sitaram: You mean yes to the second... latest sentence of mine.. namely this man is a jivan-mukti... but chooses to marry and have sexual relations...
Lotus: Yes
Lotus: Can he not fulfill some highest goal by doing so?
Sitaram: Well..... the one thing which comes to mind... and my memory is a little fuzzy, (im 50 and my health is poor)... is in the Mahabharat.... was it Drona who took a life time vow of celibacy... for the sake of his father the King.. who desired to marry a certain young woman
Sitaram: Are you familiar with that individual in the Mahabharat?
Lotus: Yes I am
Sitaram: Ok... well.. my point is that... it is always helpful to look and scriptures... to answer such questions...
Lotus: Is there not a pure way to look at such things that are normally given a bad name-- such as sexual relations, etc....
Sitaram: And as I recollect what I know of the Mahabharat... we see instances where such Celibacy results in great.... Powers... Siddhis.... and we also see instances where... sexual indulgence even between husband and wife... causes some problem
Sitaram: Mind you... I am not pretending to know "the answer" to this
Sitaram: But... I would like to point your thoughts in that direction
Sitaram: Furthermore.... I will make an additional point....
Lotus: But i'm focussing on the gray area and not the black and white
Sitaram: First.. let me say.... I am not Hare Krsna... although I have a good knowledge of them.. and respect their points of view
Lotus: And the scriptures are useful indeed, but so much as they confirm what already exists within
Sitaram: But... I am intimately familiar with the personal lives of many married Hare Krishna devotees
Lotus: Ok...and?...
Sitaram: I dont know if you realize... but they have a very strict rule... about sexual behaviors
Sitaram: Behavior
Sitaram: Namely.... even in marriage.... the couple must have sexual relations only ONCE PER MONTH.. at the time of FERTILITY... only when they desire A PREGNANCY
Lotus: My point is that there must be some higher perspective through which marriage is a positive thing and not the result of human weakness
Sitaram: AND as soon as it is apparent that the wife is pregnant.. all sexual activity must cease
Lotus: And what is that perspective?
Sitaram: I hope you wont take offense... if I speak candidly...
Lotus: What you mention seems more to be a kind of rule and regulation and not an explanation
Sitaram: But.... I suspect that you want to ... have your cake.. and eat it too... as the old saying goes...
Sitaram: Of course... I know nothing about you
Sitaram: I dont even know if you are male or female... or your age
Sitaram: But... I sense from your words...
Sitaram: That #1 you believe that there is such a thing as a "jivanmukti"..... (i dont happen to share that belief)
Sitaram: And that #2.... you are searching for some way in which someone can be married... and engaging in regular sexual activity... and still somehow be a "jivanmukti"
Sitaram: .... I will tell you... one day.. I met a man.... a Holy man... let us say... from India
Sitaram: He had come to Brooklyn, to the temple where I go... to ... give a talk...
Sitaram: Well.. afterwards... he spoke with me privately... and... although he did not speak explicitly about these matters..
Sitaram: He made some remark to me to the affect that... "Once you are 'liberated'... then you may engage in any activity... and you will still be liberated"
Sitaram: There are "gurus" who claim such "liberation"... and then engage in sexual activity... and believe that they are still... "liberated"... untouched by the experience...
Sitaram: I personally feel that they are... deceiving themselves... and others...
Lotus: Yes, yes, that is what I mean... and the point being that such worldly fulfillment, taken from the RIGHT PERSPECTIVE, can be as pure as possible
Sitaram: I would suggest that you read Gandhi's wonderful Autobiography...
Lotus: I have read some, up to a certain point
Sitaram: Gandhi speaks at length about his childhood bride.. at age 7... Kasturbai
Sitaram: And at age 12 or 13... his uncle took him aside.. and explained "what to do" and told him they would begin sleeping in the same room...
Sitaram: Mohandas and Kasturbai... were so innocent.. that he writes that he always wondered... all his life... which relative instructed HER as to what to do sexually...
Sitaram: But... he never had the nerve to bring the subject up...
Sitaram: Now this demonstrates a "level of innocence"... which is unknown in our american culture... today
Lotus: ...for is there not the example of King Janaka, to whom even gurus sent their sons for training? for King Janaka was said to be a jivanmukti, and yet he had at his command all worldly pleasure-- the point is that he was UNATTACHED,
Sitaram: But... Gandhi goes on to explain... how "addictive" the sexual activity was.. how ashamed he was that he was not at his fathers deathbed.. the moment that he died.. because he was obsessively making love to Kasturbai
Lotus: Another example has also been given that the great Adi Shankaracharya would enjoy his mother's shikand (sugar pudding) yet would not become attached to the need for more, would not develop a longing for such trifles... (yes I remember the scene you speak of from Gandhi's)
Sitaram: Well... I can only tell you what I THINK.. and Believe... and... my experiences lead me to believe that only a few humans in the history of mankind.. might ever have achieved such a purity....
Sitaram: Well pudding is slightly different from sexual intercourse
Sitaram: Although... we see the weakness of human nature... both with regard to food and sex
Lotus: And what of King Janaka and Shankaracharya?
Sitaram: But... I have a feeling you have already made your mind up... and you are looking for people and scriptural examples which will "agree" with you
Lotus: Were they not human? yet Godly?
Lotus: Perhaps you are right
Sitaram: Hmmm.... well... if you are asking ME... MY opinion.. then I am also going to look at OTHER religions....like New Testament...
Sitaram: For.. you can see by my web page... I am an american raised with no religion.. who has studied and tried many religions
Sitaram: So... in New Testament.... Jesus says to apostles.... "a man who looks at a woman with lust... has already committed adultery in his heart
Sitaram: ... so.. all the apostles groaned and said "How can any human be saved..if this is the case"...
Lotus: A wise saying I must say
Lotus: How can they be saved?
Sitaram: And Jesus answered... "That which is not possible for man.. is possible for God...
Sitaram: And He goes on to say...
Sitaram: "Some men are born Eunuchs (castrated - no testicles)
Sitaram: Some men are made eunuchs by others.... (forcibly castrated)
Sitaram: ... and others MAKE EUNUCHS OF THEMSELVES... (not by cutting themselves... but by Bramhacharya)... for the sake of the kingdom of Heaven...
Sitaram: ... "let those to whom this ability (give is Given..)... take up that Celibacy)
Sitaram: End of Jesus' words...
Lotus: Interesting
Sitaram: And St. Paul in Epistles... also says... "It is better to Marry than to Burn (i.e. burn in the heart with lusts).... BUT... I WOULD that everyone would BECOME EVEN AS I (Paul) AM... (namely celibate)
Lotus: So the capacity for Celibacy is Given (as opposed to achieved)?
Sitaram: Yes... if you read through the pages at my web site... you will see discussions about "Faith" as a
Sitaram: Yes... if you read through the pages at my web site... you will see discussions about "Faith" as a "Gift"...
Sitaram: You know... this conversation is very valuable for me... I am grateful that you have asked me these questions
Lotus: My connection was cut
Sitaram: I thought so
Sitaram: I just added you to my "buddy" list
Sitaram: So I can see you on line
Sitaram: This is a very valuable discussion for me
Sitaram: I am glad that you have asked me these questions
Sitaram: You see.. my web page.. has developed out of just such on line discussions as these
Lotus: And thank you for your time
Sitaram: I would like to share with you a discussion I had last month
Sitaram: To... show you the other side of the spectrum on this issue of human sexuality... and moksha
Sitaram: Perhaps you have heard of Bhagwan Rajneesh (Osho) who was a "guru" in Oregon in the 1980s , and has since passed away
gosh... I just had the most valuable chat with someone in AOL Hindu beliefs... who wanted to know if someone who was a "jivanmukti" had achieved "liberation" while still alive... could conceivable marry and engage in sexual relations for "spiritual" reasons... and still remain "liberated".. "detached"
but you see, in eastern religions... God is the source of both Being and Non-Being... so to even discuss the notion of God "EXISTING"... is to place God in the world of dualities... and to partake of something which emanates or has its source in God,.. so thereby ... discussions of Gods "EXISTENCE' in the West... diminish Gods Sovereignty and Omnipotence
I call myself a Hindu.... for simplicity sake... because that "means something" closer to what I am ... than anything else....but... like most "spiritual" americans... I am eclectic... and syncretistic
so syncretistic... does NOT mean... like synchronicity... doing things at the same time... but rather.. being like the people of Crete actually... what I believe... is that God is the Source of every Sacred Scripture... GOd is the source of every Religious Creed.. (which is a quote from the Svetasvatara Upanisad.. you will find it in the website)
but.. that is sort of what Gandhi believed... in the movie.. you know.. where he said "I am a Hindu, and a Christian, and a Moslem, and a Jew..."
and also the touching scene where a Hindu repents of killing a Moslem child.. but Gandhi says to him... "I know a way out of Hell... you must raise a Moslem orphan.. but.... YOU MUST RAISE HIM AS A MOSLEM
here hoping we all find what we seek
and .. perhaps.. that is really the same thing... after all
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