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Lord Krsna says a very accurate reasonable thing when he says... Out of thousands of people... hardly one seeks ME, and out of the thousands who seek ME, hardly one comes to realize my true nature
well... DT... I guess I would say... Sri is using Prabhupads translation... there are other translations... which differ.. which Sri would understandably reject... but in Gita...Krsna definitely outlines the different types of people. with their different types of religion
(a Hare Krishna devotee is arguing that a verse from the Gita says that only smart people see God.... so someone asks me my opinion.)
Krisna does indicate that , as God, he accepts all sorts of worship... even from people who do not realize that they are worshiping Krsna....
well.... I am not a Sanskrit Scholar... and I wouldnt want to offend Iskon people.. who highly revear Prhabupads translation.
i guess from my personal point of view.... the ration of any finite quantity... to an infinite. ... is a ration of ZERO... so since we are all FINITE, we all know roughly ZERO PERCENT... of what is knowable...
i dont think it is significant in matters of relgion, to dwell on... who is smarter or dumber ... or shorter or taller...
i am very fond of some of Ghandis answers to people, regarding religion... for example...
someone once asked Ghandi about his own religious beliefs....Ghandi replied.... "My beliefs, my worship, my practice... my prayers.... are a deeply personal matter.. between myself.. and God..."
although, LOL, Prahbupad said once "Ghandi is a saint among politicians, and a Politician among Saints"
i think that is sort of what it all boils down to.... we are ultimately, each of us... at some point... totally alone with God... in the end....i suppose... like a husband and wife.... when the bedroom door closes... but... a million times more intimate.... (and nothing to do with sex)... but... it is like a marriage... ones SELF... and ones Creator..
so... for on who has chose Islam... when they stand before God... there is gonna be talk about Ramadan... for sure... and pilgrimage to Mecca... and Raca's....
for the Christian... who chose Jesus... certainly.... I was naked, did you clothe me, I was hungry, did you feed me....
and , for the Buddhist.... finally faced with the ultimate Dharma.... the degree of detachment,... the reminant of desire...
it is like a parent with many children.. the athletic child... you talk about their base ball scores.... the sickly child,... how carefully did they keep their stamp collection... the little girl... were you good to your dollies...
for the loving parent... of many children.. there is no smarter... no dumber.. no older... no younger... no male... no female... only You and Me and Now...and always
in the psalms... "I went to the Highest mountain,.. and You were there... I went to the depths of the sea.. and You were there too....
when you are alone,... but you know you are not alone,.... that is religion, that is faith, it is as simple as that
when you are alone, but you talk to the One who is always with you,... that is prayer, it is as simple as that
when it is totally dark,... but you know you are watched... that is law and righteousness, it is as simple as that
you can run, but you cannot hide
when you stop running, that is surrender, it is as simple as that the scriptures... the practice.... those are the details... the fine print
St. Augustine, in Confessions, Ch. 10 writes.. "Oh Thou Beauty, most ancient, yet most fresh.... far and wide have I searched for Thee, and , alas,... all along, .. Thou wast within me."
numbers and majority is not always important.... soil and clay is more abundant than gold... but it is gold which everyone seeks
man is funny, man desires to turn clay into gold..... but when he succeeds... then gold becomes clay ;)
the poor man Lazarus... in Jesus parable... sat in the street, and the dogs licked his wounds... but when he died.. his soul rested in the bosom of Abraham....
but ask yourself... had you cured his sores... and eliminated his poverty.. and made him the rich man... would he still have rested in the bosom of Abraham?
when Jesus is criticized over the issue of the precious ointment... he replies "The poor shall always be with you"
When Moses instructs in the commandment concerning gleaning of the fields... he states "for the poor shall always be with you."
isnt it interesting... from a theological point of view... that these statements about the poor are made by Moses and Jesus....
In the Beatitudes , in the Sermon on the Mount,... Jesus said "Blessed are the poor, in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven (like Lazarus)... " Jesus did not say "Eliminate world poverty..." .. he simply said... "I was hungry... and you fed me"
Quantum Physics has now discovered "events" which are purely spontaneous... no causality... . but thats about all I know... im not a Physicist... but it seems to have interesting theological implications... sort of like seeing "sparks of God"
Rupert Sheldrake - Morphic Resonance
Rev. Foolder dresses up in Robes... like a Bishop.... but they robes are cleverly cut,.. so it shows lots of "cleavage" for his Necktie... cause Jesus is a "business man" deep down.. and Rev. Foolder has a big circular gold thingey on a chain around his neck like a Greek Bishop. (but heaven forbid you should see a cross anywhere)...what a COSTUME...HAPPY HALLOWEEN!!
Rev. Foolder spends a half hour at a swack... hawking his little Good Shephard statues... and his web site features MOTHER THERESA... he hawks anything he thinks will sell , or market.. talk about merchants in the Temple..;)
every time I see him... I see evil oozing out of every pore...
now... Charles Stanley... seems sincere.. and ok... what a difference , to compare the two!!
well.. even though I am Hindu.. at least... I can be positive about Charles Stanley... even though I dont agree with his Lutheran message of salvation by Faith...
the devil loves to wear a costume of... respectability.... ( not that I really believe in the devil but im trying to talk christian language here)... the devil really hooks more people by DOCTRINAL evil.. than fleshly lusts...
even if Rev. Foolder is pure as the driven snow.. with regard to sex or alchohol... or tobacco... he is still pure evil, docrinally... sorry.. not flaming or trolling here.. but thats my opinion.. to which im entitled
hey... MacDonalds is food, and sells a lot... but its not nourishing food (from a nutritionists point of view)
hey... the soviet union was big at its prime... too... sorry.. I really dont want to fight..
but Foolder just makes my skin crawl.. what he says... how he says it.. his hidden agendas.. the whole ambiance...
now.. I did browse through Billy Graham's biography,... and had a good feeling about him... and respect.... I will take a look at Rev. Foolders bio if I see it...
Jesus himself said... "They will say Lord, Lord,.. we did this that and the other thing in YOUR Name"... RIGHT... so... there must be preachers like that around somewhere...
look.. I think a lot of folks mistake clean living with... some form of christian goodness... but doctrines and beliefs can be foul... even if preached by a virgin... look at end of Job where God says "I am angry with Elihu, Bildad, etc BECAUSE THEY SPOKE ABOUT ME INCORRECTLY...
well.. your right soop,.. not a lot of dogma... but.. all I see are dollar signs in his eyes, a cash register drawer in his mouth,.. and a "caaa-ching" every time he opens his mouth...
obviously... since I was Greek Orthodox Christian for 17 years,.. and in a monastery.. and now embrace Hindu scriptures and worship... obviously I have personally rejected aspects of Christianity.. but.. I do enjoy theology,.. and try to keep some open mind.. and feel an hour with Charles Stanley. is better spent than an Hour of Powder with Rev. Foolder in his Plastic Cathedral
those tv minister types always drive REALLY NICE CARS.. and they all seem to have a son, hanging around somewhere.... (just like Frank Purdue's son)... who suddenly cleans up his act... puts on his "robes".. and steps in to take over Dad's "family business"
look.. I think I am open minded.. but that doesnt mean that there isnt blatant evil and corruption in the world... or that I never notice it or comment about it... I think I am "open minded" to find some good words to say about Charles Stanley... rather than universally condemn all TV evangelists
soop.. I think my comments are phrased very carefully.. with a minimum of abuse... and generously supported by scriptural verses to illustrate why I think the way I do... i dont think its accured to dismiss me as "cynical" simply because I happen to disagree with you..
im suddenly reminded of the Old Testament passage.. where, is it Samuel.. comes to look for a King to annoint.. and the Lord rejects all the sons, until David... the "least"... and it says something about "man judges outwardly, but God knows the heart"...
well, I will keep an eye out for Rev. Foolders bio... I try to be always prepared to change my mind.. (and even my religion)... if I see a good reason to...
and,.. I cant stress enough.. that... if there is evil or satan... why its smart enough to clothe itself in respectability.... look at Isaiah "all thy righteousness has become as a filthy rag before God"
also... in Proverbs... I think "There are ways which seemeth good unto a man, but the end thereof is death"...
also... look at the sons of Aaron who were struck dead for offering "strange incense"... and Uzzah who was struck dead for the pious but misguided jesture of touching the Ark which was about to fall..
also.. look in Book of Job.. how God is angered by the beliefs and doctrines expressed by Jobs three friends... even though they were "very respectable" just like Rev Foolder
consider the parable of the foolish virgins... who did not have enough oil in their lamps to meed the Bridegroom.. and the wise virgins, who did... the Greek Orthodox like to point out that THEY WERE BOTH VIRGINS, the wise and the foolish.. i.e. they had that sort of respectability... but virginity wasnt sufficient
i was thinking about that the other day... Jesus didnt baptize... John the baptist said "I have need to be baptized by thee".... so... who knows... also... the thief on the cross.. had he received baptism... we have no reason to believe that he didnt.. he could have received Johns.. or the Apostles baptism...
also.. if God has foreknowledge of all time... then God foreknew the debates and questions of future centuries as He was divinely inspiring the scriptures... so He could have chosen to add more explicit verses.. about Trinity or Transubstantiation or Apostolic succession.. to avoid controversy.. if that were important to God..
the man who said "Good master, what should I do to gain eternal life "... Jesus answers,.. "WHY callest thou me good? there is only one good which is God..".... Jesus didnt say "DONT CALL ME GOOD..."... but asked the man an interesting.. suggestive question..
also... during a battle... when Moses held his arms outstretched.. the Jews prevailed.. but when he let his arms down.. they started to lose... so Aaron (alpha) held up one arm... and OZz (Omega) held up the other arm (making a cross).. all day... till the battle was won ;)
well.. I asked my famous question "Is the Pope a Christian?"
and I received a typical evasive answer "No one can know another persons heart"
so I said "Well, if no one can know another persons heart, and therefore no one could ever recognize another christian, THEN WHY DO YOU PREACH THE GOSPEL, AND TRY TO CONVERT
... since you would never be able to recognize another Christian,.. if you converted one...
and why does Christ say "Whereever two or three of you are gathered in my name"... since you just said its impossible to recognize who is a Christian... since you cant possibly know another persons heart
of course.... my previous question was "Is Bill Clinton a Christian."... since some people in those chats say he couldnt be... since he visibly sins... and does not product proper fruits ("a tree is known by its fruits")
a Christian was arguing with me, and talking about the "real truth"... and being logical... and listening to reason.. and using arguments.... so I posed a hypothetical situation which was difficult for him to answer...
BUT.... If the devil were to appear before you with a book.. with Jesus standing to one side... and the devil were to say "In this book is a totally logical argument, which , if y ou read it, will forever dispell your belief in Jesus"... and if you were to look to Jesus.. and He were to confirm the truth of what the devil says... WOULD YOU READ THAT BOOK.....????
Because, IF you answer YES, then you have admitted that you are willing to abandon your Faith in Jesus... but... IF you answer NO, then you admit that for you, your FAITH in Jesus is MORE IMPORTANT than any TRUTH which is possible in language or discourse or syllogistic reasoning...
but the catch is.. both Jesus and the devil have told you that once you read that "logica truth"... you will forever loose your faith in Christ
that is why Jesus says... "I am the Truth...".... think about it.... Jesus doesnt say.... "here are some words which constitute the Truth... go read them...".... Jesus says "search the scriptures for therein will ye find eternal Life"
so.. Jesus is saying... "search these words"... but.... look for Me.. because "I am the Truth". ... not the words.. not the logic.. not the arguments..
otherwise... if arguments and reason lead to Faith in Christ... then they would be written in the New Testament... and Faith would be automatic.. like a Geometrical proof...
but a mathematical proof.. forces us to agree.. without our consent.. leads down a syllogistic path.. violates our free-will
but... if what I have said just now... is correct... then all of the arguing... the attacking... is pointless
if Faith is a Gift... then it doesnt come from knowledge or arguing...
And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and
though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.
And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.
so there is the verse in New testament describing Faith as a Gift
and here is the one Old testament verse (from Apocrypha) which refers to Faith as a gift:
And blessed is the eunuch, which with his hands hath wrought no iniquity, nor imagined wicked things against God: for unto him shall be given the special gift of faith, and an inheritance in the temple of the Lord more acceptable to his mind.
anyway... it is possible to argue that Faith is a Gift.. and furthermore.. that wisdom or knowledge can come AFTER one receives the Gift of faith... which if its true, means that one cant bring others to Faith by arguments, or logic
2 Peter 1:5 ..And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;.... Faith comes first, then virtue,.. then knowledge
and consider I corinthians 2:5 ...That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.... which seems to point to the folly of people who argue with others,... to bring them to Faith..
Proverbs 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
And I gave my heart to seek and search out by wisdom concerning all things that are done under heaven: this sore travail hath God given to the sons of man to be exercised therewith.
Ecclesiastes 1:13 And I gave my heart to seek and search out by wisdom concerning all things that are done under heaven: this sore travail hath God given to the sons of man to be exercised therewith.
Ecclesiastes 7:25 I applied mine heart to know, and to search, and to seek out wisdom, and the reason of things, and to know the wickedness of folly, even of foolishness and madness:
Tonight in chat someone said ... "Hey God never said to me, "do you want free will?"
so I replied... if God had asked you "Do you want Free Will"... what would you have used to make that "free will choice"...??? ;) ..hmmm... perhaps choices are the greatest bondage....?
interestingly enought... Apocrypha (wisdom of Solomon I think) or Sophia Seirax... has the only old testament verse which says that "faith is a gift"...
but that does not pertain to our Purgatory discussion...
let me grab a little Rom. Catholic book here... "Arguments with Fundamentalists"... it has stuff to defend purgatory concept
ok.. book is "Answering a Fundamentalist" by Albert J. Nevins, M.M. isbn 0-87973-433-7
so... ch. 11 Purgatory.... Fundie argues "What does the word of God say concerning purgatory? NOTHING!! The Roman Catholic doctrine of purgatory is purely pagan and cannot stand in the light of Scripture."
ok.. that is typical Fundi protestant argument agains catholics
ok... Rom. Cath. church says in addition to heaven and hell, there is intermediate place of atonement and purification called purgatory..
God forgives, but God does not forget.... (these are all rom catholic arguments which follow
God forgives our sins through our repentance, but at same time He demands reparation for these offenses
it is like a boy who breaks window with baseball... he says sorry, mommy says you are forgiven... but still he has to pay for window out of allowance.... punishment... even though forgiven...
now we come to scriptural justification of purgatory... from R.C. viewpoint
( hmm.. never though about this before ..Jesus on cross says to thief..."THIS DAY you will be with me in paradise..." why would he stress THIS DAY... if they both know that they will be dead in hours .. and if there is only HEAVEN or HELL.... why would Jesus bother to add THIS DAY... unless there was also a purgatory...??? )
Revelation 21:27... "nothing unclean shall enter heaven"..... Matt 5:8 Jesus reveals that only the pure of heart shall see God
yet... rc church says few of us die perfect... most die with attachment to sin
we die with pride, failures in charity, lack of prayerfulness, human weaknesses
now... Grafitti made by early Christians in catacombs of rome, ask Christians passing by to pray for deceased relatives...
but there is no point in praying for those in heaven, who have all the beatitude they can contain, nor ..
nor is there any point in praying fro those consigned to all eternity in hell, from which there is no return...
hence... these early christians believed that souls of departed were in an intermediate place awaiting entrance into heaven... i.e. purgatory...
it is interesting to note how Jesus says to thief on cross... "THIS DAY... shall you be with me in paradise".... if there is no intermediate wait... if it is obvious that death means heaven and hell... why does jesus bother to say THIS DAY, since both men know they will be dead in a few hours
that is an interesting thought I never had until just now...!! hmmmm
in aprcrypha 2 mac 12:46 Judas Maccabeus take up a collection to obtain prayers for the dead... and it is said that it was "a holy and pious thought"
and that through it "he made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin"...
so.. there is a heavyduty verse pro purgatory...no wonder Apocraphy books are not canonical for many (but are for greek orth rom.catholic and anglican)
other r.c. scriptural allusions to purgatory.... Matt 12:32 Jesus speaks of a sin that "will not be forgiven, either IN THIS AGE, or the AGE TO COME"... the inference is that there are some sins THAT WILL BE FORGIVEN after death.. sins not
sins not properly repented or atoned for but not serious enought to cause everlasting death, yet which can be purified through suffering.
St. Gregory of Nyssa, St. Gregory the Great, St. Augustine, among others... speak of the cleansing fire of purgatory...
Others... St. Catherine of Genoa, St. Bonaventure, for example ... saw the suffering of purgatory as spiritual pain... separation from God but not without hope
as st catherine puts it... "The soul in purgatory feels great happiness and great sorrow; the one does not hinder the others
The happiness is the knowledge that salvation will eventually be attained.. the saddness because one is not yet in the presence of God...
Most western theologians today reject the notion of real fire, as does the greek orthodox fhurch.. but the exact nature of suffering is still debated
r.c. Confession of Faith (a document of the church) speaks of the pain of purgatory in this way: The talk of purgatorial fire is an image
... that refers to a deeper reality. Fire can be understood as the cleansing purifying and sanctifying power of Gods holiness and mercy... the en
the encounter with the fire of Gods love that takes place in death has a purifying and transforming power for the person who has indeed decided for God in principle but
but who has not consistently realized this decision and has fallen short of the ideal
how long is the soul in purgatory? the church is silent on the issue...
the psalms tell us that in the sight of God a day is 1000 years and 1000 years is like a day
the length of time.. is left to gods mercy and justice...
Martin Luther at one point in his writings asserted that "Purgatory is an uncertainty"... i.e Luther didnt outright reject it
however.. Calvin railed against the notion and saw it as "a dreadful plasphemy against Christ
St Paul seems to approach this distinctio in 1 Cor 3:11-15 when he speaks of Jesus as the unique foundation of the Church and says that those who succeed him must build on that foundation
the preacher who fails this test will suffer a loss but can be saved. The "fire" of the passage suggests an expiatory punishment for faults not meriting damnation
the rc church divides membership into three groups the church triumphand (in heaven the saints)... the church militant (living folks on earth)... and the Church suffering (those in purgatory)... all forming the mystical body of Christ
vide 1 Cor 12:27
ok here is another zinger verse from apocrypha, Sophia Sirach... 7:33 " let them give graciously to all the living and WITHHOLD NOT KINDNESS FROM THE DEAD......
If the clouds be full of rain, they empty themselves upon the earth: and if the tree fall toward the south, or toward the north, in the place where the tree falleth, there it shall be. Ecclesiastes 11:3
ok... Babylonian Captivity of Jews.... the Religion of their captors,, King Cyrus..etc. . was the Zoroastrian Relgion....
Zoroastrian religion is really first world religion which had a concept of Good God (ahura mazda).. and an evil devil type (Mainu)
also... our word Paradise ... comes from Parsi word for "garden"...
also.... Zoroastrian Avestas (scriptures0.)... first to stress... a Judgement... a battle between Good and Evil....
so.. anyway... if we look at jewish scriptures written before babylonian captivity... we do not see this Good Evil/ God Devil dichotomy as strongly as in post Captivity prophetic books
and.. hold on... I will give you an exellent example of pre and post captivity verses
I Chronicles 21:1 "And Satan stood up agains Israel, and provoked David to number Israel" but in II Samuel 24:1 "And again the anger of the Lord was kindled against Israel, and he (the Lord) moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah."
so... the II Samuel verse shows God moving David to number Israel.. but post captivity verse I Chronicles.. says "Satan stood up and..." etc... etc..
anyway.... the Zoroastrian religion over the centuries went through its own transformations.. ... there is a messiah figure who is prophesies called Soshuant (which I think may be realted to word for saviour yeshua joshua)... and a period of restoration called Fraisheberge
and... in the final... "judgement" of all souls.. there is a zoroastrian Lake of Fire... a fire which warms and nourished the righteous,... but burns and torments the wickend
now.... let us turn to the book of Daniel... and the vision of the Ancient of Days...
the Ancient of days... is seated on a throne.. and from the base of the throne flows a river of fire.. or fiery stream....
now.. the Greek orthodox christians have developed an entire theology upon this "river of fire"
ok.. everyhwere you look in scriptures... God is fire.. God is Light.. God is Love...right????
so.... the River of Fire... pouring forth from the base of the throne of the Ancient of Days... is Gods love... which encompasses all things. and the wicked and the just...
and... just like the Zoroastrian theology concerning the lake of fire.. the river of fire of gods love warms and nourished the righteous... and burns and torments the wicked...
so... in this type of theology... heaven and hell are the same place... it depends upon how each person cast the temperament and nature of their souls by their free will actions...
one day... I decided to visit a reform jewish synagog... in manhattan... but got there one hour early.. so the catholic hispanic janitor let me in ;) ... the place was empty
so.. I go up to the front pew... and im sitting there.. looking at the sancturay... the torah scrolls (inside) etc etc
when suddenly... in my mind.. comes three very strong loud thoughts... one right after another.. almost.. like it wasnt..my own thoughts.. you know.. inner monologue.. stream of consciousness
the first thought : "A thought or memory in the mind of God... must certainly have more , greater "reality" than any sensible , palpable , physical thing
the secong thought: "Who amongst us would ever be forgotten in "The Mind of God"
then.. the third thought... "You will be remembered after the fashion which you have cast yourself by your own free-will actions... if bitter angry wretches.. you ..
you... shall be remembered as a wretch... if humble... greatful... patient cheerful.... personality... you shall be remembered as cheerful... AND THEREIN LIES HEAVEN AND HELL
so.. anyway... what were those "three strong loud thoughts" which seemed to come from nowhere... well... who can say... obviously.. I drew my own conclusions as years went by....
but.. you can see how this... "way in which you are remembered".. fits in with the river of fire theology of greek orthodox... and the zoroastrian lake of fire...
but.. you can see how this... "way in which you are remembered".. fits in with the river of fire theology of greek orthodox... and the zoroastrian lake of fire...
<<<< A CHRISTIAN IN THE ROOM tries to convert some people >>>>
Xtian wants to convert you to Xtian's brand of Christianity... which is a perfectly ok thing to try to do... im sure Xtian feels it is his duty.. feels compelled to "save souls"... and Xtian will (im guessing) try to lead you "there" by a series of "answer me yes or no" questions
... and reconciles how a Good God who is Love... could still somehow... "torment" beings... of course the torment IS THE LOVE... to be in the face of perfect love... and to be forever .. unworthy...
so.. obviously.. there were some jewish effort to prosylitize... but.... lets look at what the Torah and Covenant is.. from a Talmudic perspective ===
hmmm.. from what I remember of Homer.... The Gods of the Pantheon... Athena... Zeus.. etc...
were very human,... in their... passions. anger... faults.... and.. sometimes they were adverserial enemies with humans... sometimes they took human lovers... and sometimes they befriended and helped humans...but the Gods were basicly... very human.. but immortal, and very powerful..but not omnipotent...
now... if we look at Platos dialogues... and Socrates... well. one thing to notice... Socrates and others are frequently saying in greek Alla ma ton Dion... which is sort of 'By God, yes"... or by God no...
now.. when plato wants to lend the air of antiquity... he reverts to the Homeric dialect. ... which sounded classy to them.. just like Shakespearean or King James english sounds classy to us...
now... if we look at the first page of Plato's republic.. Socrates says "I went down yesterday to the Piraeus..." (went down = katabenein in greek)... some scholars see that phrase setting the seen for the Republics great "descent" into the underworld..
now... in the first page of Platos Republic.. Socrates says how he had just gone down to the Piraeus.. the port of athens... to participate in a Religious festival.. worship of the Divine Mother, or Goddess... and he is very pious in his tone.. said he just offered prayers
prayers to the Goddess...
ok... zane.... the point im trying to make is that , I dont know how many hundreds of years elapsed between Homers epics... and Socrates.. but it is obvious to me that... in that time.... worship had become more personal... and devotional... and tender. . in the relationship between man and the divinity...
we can see this very nicely... in Socrates' Prayer to Pan... in the Symposium... I believe....
but... in the Illiad and Odyssey themselves.... we dont see.. the same kind of piety... prayer... devotional mood...
we do see in Homer.... a verse about how a generation of men are like the leaves of the trees... gone in a short season....
that thought in Homer, of mans transient short lived nature... resembles the passages in Psalms and Old testament about man being like a flower of the field... the wind passes over it and it is gone...
that thought in Homer, of mans transient short lived nature... resembles the passages in Psalms and Old testament about man being like a flower of the field... the wind passes over it and it is gone...
and.. in the Illiad.. if you examine.. the prolonged dialogue between Glaukon and Diomedes.. . you will see the emphasis of concern upon... the short lived nature of man... and how... all that man has.. in his yearning for immortality.. is his fame..and honor.. sung by future generations.....
but.. in Homer... (its been 30 years since I really read them).... you dont really see the kind of worship, of devotion.. that is hinted at in Platos dialogues... in SOcrates life....
if you look at Platos Apologia... where Socrates drinks the poison hemlock... there is a very touching scene... where Socrates asks the guard.. who has just brought him the poison...
but.. in Homer... (its been 30 years since I really read them).... you dont really see the kind of worship, of devotion.. that is hinted at in Platos dialogues... in SOcrates life....
if you look at Platos Apologia... where Socrates drinks the poison hemlock... there is a very touching scene... where Socrates asks the guard.. who has just brought him the poison...
Socrates askes "Is there enough poison here... so that I may pour some as a libation to the Gods"... but the guard says .."no they measure the dose very carefully... you must drink all of it...
so... what I see.... in the interval between Homer,,... and Socrates.. is the development of a more personal devotional relationship to Divinity.... but also... a tendency more and more... towards , well a form of monotheism... that all manifestations are really of the One God....
now.. dont forget.... Aristotle was the student of Plato... and in the Metaphysics.. we really see a movement towards.. monotheism.. looking at the Prime Mover.. or original cause...
now.. by the time we get to , say... Epictetus and his Discourses.. who was circa 90 ad... and was teacher to Marcus Aurelius (circa 120 a.d)... well... you see more and more emphasis on simply Jove,.. as the One God...
and Epictetus has this interesting statement... "Why do you pray to Jove,... asking for the safety of your son or daughter on a journey... why not pray to Jove FOR THE EQUANIMITY OF SPIRIT to accept whatever good or evil befalls you in any situation?"
and Epictetus has this interesting statement... "Why do you pray to Jove,... asking for the safety of your son or daughter on a journey... why not pray to Jove FOR THE EQUANIMITY OF SPIRIT to accept whatever good or evil befalls you in any situation?"
now... at the end of Plato's Republic... we find, in the last four pages... the Myth of Err of the Pamphylian race (a kind of Everyman, since Pam or Pan = all, and Phyli = race)...
Err (thats the character's name) .. is a warrior.. who has been slain in battle.. and placed on a funeral pyre for cremation.. when he comes back to life.. and tells of his experiences in the underworld...
and. ... he talks about re-inarnation... and how he saw all the Souls... choosing what kind of life they were about to be born into
and it says that the souls drew lots. .. to see who would choose first, from the assortment of lives, and who would choose last
and Odysseus was amongst those souls... and Odysseus drew the last lot , and chose last....
but.. it said that whether one chose first , or last, they would still wind up choosing the same life for rebirth... based on the experiences of their past life... i.e. their Karma (though that word is not used by Plato
and... it says that Odysseus chose the best of all... namely the life of an ordinary "middle-class" man... living in a free democracy.......
but... even... in Platos dialogues.. one does not see God... as.. judging or helping with "grace"... but it is sort of an automatic process. like the laws of Karma...
by the way... since we mentioned Marcus Aurelius, and his teacher Epictetus.. it is interesting to note that in the writings of both men.. there is only one sentence in each which mentions Christians at all...
and in both authors.. it says more or less the same thing.. it says (paraphrasing).."oh...but whatever you do... dont be down in the mouth gloomy like those sour-puss Christians"
it is surprising.. that as late as 120 A.D. a Roman Emperor like Marcus Arelius (at least in his bood Meditations))... would not have something more than one sentence to say about the Christians
ok.. someone asked about karma... it simply means "action"... the root meaning in Sanskrit I guess... but its just like Jesus saying... "with what measure you measure unto others,... with that same measure will it be measured unto you..."...or cast your bread upon the waters...
it is interesting that even today... in Orthodox Judaism... Rabinnical tradition allows for the POSSIBILITY of Re-Birth.. if there was something left undone in llife... but does not STRESS that it happens frequently or on a regular basis
of course... there were at the time of Jesus .. the Sadducees... who were associated with the Temple Levitical Priests.. and then the Pharisees... who were the scribes... and , I suppose the Sanhedrin... and transmitted and contributed to the Talmudic oral tradition
hmmm... well.. I do remember that the Saducess disappeared with the destruction of the Temple in 70 ad... and the Judiasm of TOday traces back to the Pharisees...
in fact... in the epistles.. it mentions that Rabbi who was a teacher to Saul/Paul... and that Rabbis name (cant remember right now)... is famous in the Talmud of today...
ayes thanks... gamelial
ohh... heres an interesting tidbit... the laying on of the hands... Apostolic succession... started in Deuteronomy when Moses laid his hands upon Joshua... to 'transmit authority'.. and laying on of hands was part of Rabbinical ordination... requiring three rabbis.... (in greek orth... 3 bishops are needed to consecrate a bishop
and... it is very likely that Jesus Himself received that laying on of hands... since Jesus was addressed as Rabbi... and was given Isaiah to read in the Temple...
it is also interesting.... regarding apostolic succession... that... the Zen Buddhists trace their Lineage of "Mind-to-Mind wordless transmission"... making another zen master.. back to Shakyamuni Buddas first transmission to Mahakashyapa
its funny how , in hinduism,... Brahmins,, and Kshatryas,... are referred to as "twice-born"... and the Christians have the notion of "born-again"
Fear came upon me, and trembling, which made all my bones to shake.
Job 4:14 Fear came upon me, and trembling, which made all my bones to shake. Psalms 2:11 Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling. Jeremiah 30:5 For thus saith the LORD; We have heard a voice of trembling, of fear, and not of peace. 1 Corinthians 2:3 And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling. 2 Corinthians 7:15 And his inward affection is more abundant toward you, whilst he remembereth the obedience of you all, how with fear and trembling ye received him.
1 Kings 19:12 And after the earthquake a fire; but the LORD was not in the fire: and after the fire a still small voice.13 And it was so, when Elijah heard it, that he wrapped his face in his mantle, and went out, and stood in the entering in of the cave. And, behold, there came a voice unto him, and said, What doest thou here, Elijah?
... sometime.. try to find a book entitled "The Way of the Pilgrim"... writen by an anonymous russian author... shortly before the Russian Revolution... its about a peasant man who practices "the Jesus Prayer"... and achieves "Prayer of the Heart"... unceasing Prayer.. mentioned by St. Paul...
some protestant denominations refuse to say that Jesus is God.. and say... "Oh no,... Jesus is only Son of GOd"... yet in Gospels.. Adam is also called "son of god"... and Rom. Catholics.. and Greek Orthodox unhesitatingly call Jesus THEANTHROPOS (God-Man)... quite a signifigant difference.. dont you think??
theo.. one way is Indian Wrestling... but then wasnt it Isaac who wrestled with the "angel of the Lord" all night... until the angel broke his hip?? finally found it Genesis 32:24 And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the day.
good point about "if you dont watch".. but.. its really more like the wise virgins who had oil for the lamps to meet the bridegrooms coming.. and the foolish virgins who didnt have enought oil.... (church fathers point out that BOTH wise AND foolish were VIRGINS.. (i.e. pure)... BUT not enough oil (greek eleios oil = elaios mercy)... play on words
although John 10:10 (regarding thief metaphor) ..The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.
and Luke 12:39 And this know, that if the goodman of the house had known what hour the thief
would come, he would have watched, and not have suffered his house to be broken through.
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