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(Total activity, all pages, all sites, in page reloads, since 9/21/2000)
Dialogue with a Christian Missionary, demonstrating cunning dishonesty, and how to defeat them.
Boxer: May I ask you some questions about your beliefs?
Sitaram: Why yes, certainly.. ask anything....
(notice how I should have right here clearly stated that I do not agree to simply answer yes or no to the questions... but only agree if I am allowed to speak freely, and at length)..
(Also, notice the evil cunning in BOXERS request that I answer only YES or NO,
his dishonest, hidden agenda, to trick me into denying my beliefs against my free will,
THUS ROBBING ME OF MY FREE WILL!)
Boxer: DO you believe that your own soul progresses spiritually from its past lives?
Sitaram: yes.
Boxer: How did your soul get ahead of others' souls?
Sitaram: Hmm.. good question.. in my opinion.. (if you look at my document of dialogues that I emailed to you..
the dream I had..
where it talks about being "purefied through suffering")...
It is related to passage in Wisdom of Solomon..
"The Lord scourges every son whom He receives,
places the soul in the fire of adversity,
like gold in furnace..
reaching a seven-fold purity"
Also, look at passage from Meher Baba.. concerning the soul and rebirth...
"salvation" (moksha) is a process of.. learning from experience..
learning from suffering..
from many re-births,
even... learning from over-indulgence..
the way a drunk learns sobriety..
after enough years of hangovers. and rock bottoms....
and .. also grace.. like getting bonus points in a video game...
and there is also the QUID-PRO-QUO aspect of prayer and religion....
Boxer: but God loves me, I know, because I have received His chastisement as well, would you disagree?
Sitaram: Sort of
a quid-pro-quo prayer:
"Dear Lord, gimme this, gimme that,
I promise I will do this,
I promise that I will do This and That,...
your really super Lord,
... but Thy will be done"
BOXER... would you mind if I made a really constructive suggestion.. at this juncture... I think it would help you understand me,... and these topics ... a whole lot better...
Boxer: so if your soul, for instance, is ahead of my soul in spiritual enlightenment, then that means only that God has chastised your soul more in past lives?
Boxer: YES OR NO ANSWERS WILL DO FINE HERE... lots faster!
Sitaram: this is a serious... sincere suggestion.. something that you can easily do... which will help you understand something that you are really not understanding....
Boxer: but you said you were willing to answer my questions...
Sitaram: but... BOXER.. if you would just have the curtesy to listen to my one suggestion.. you will understand WHY you feel compelled to stick to YES or NO questions... and why its so UTTERLY futile... and also dishonest and deceptive...
Boxer: What suggestions, read your email?
Sitaram: if you would try listening patiently, politely, then you would know what my suggestion is and you would perhaps actually learn something significant... that you have perhaps never been aware of in your life....
Boxer: I have been extremely patient, Bill, and will continue, your suggestion?
Sitaram: Ok.. very simple...
at your convenience...
look at the document ...
and search for a dialogue in there that I have withh someone called Xtian...
and look at the part where I explain to him how...
the very nature of his complsion towards Yes/No Aristotelian Syllogistic Linear reasoning....
e.g. a implies B, B implies C, C implies yada yada about God..
or Trinity.. whatever....
and I compare that with what has come to light in the work of Kurt Godel...
about axiomatic systems.. and mathematical truth....
these YES/NO aristotelian syllogisms...
A implies B (wont you agree) and
B implies C (wont you agree).....
the BREAD and BUTTER of western civilization...
from Socrates and Plato..
down through Martin Luther...
to all the TV evangelists.....
If you will just study that talk I have with Xtian..
you may possibly realize something about the STYLE OF REASONING....
which is essential to Christian Apologetics..
shall we say... and also ITS INHERENT SHORTCOMINGS...
...which.. by the way.. are the same shortcomings of our modern Judicial Process...
when we swear to "tell the whole truth"...
well , no one ever "tells the whole truth" on the witness stand...
because Pery Mason...
or Clarence Darrow..
or someone of that ilk... says ...
Please answer the question.. YES or NO...
DO YOU UNDERSTAND WHAT I AM ASKING YOU TO DO BOXER??,
or did you "tune out"?
In fact, I think you might find it quite amusing..
and chuckle a bit..
because the fellow I was chatting with... Xtian...
makes the very same request as you do..
namely "PLEASE STICK TO YES OR NO ANSWERS"...
Boxer:
I must say, Ive never met anyone who took so long to say so little. What of Jesus' statement, "Let your year be year and your nay be nay"....
Sitaram:
Well... I can sense a clouded mind...
because the point that I made to Xtian..
(of course his mind was closed as well)...
namely the results of Godels work..
the implications for Theology...
are some of the MOST MONUMENTAL EVENTS OF THIS CENTURY...
I will however point out to you..
that when Pilate questions Jesus.....
Jesus does not answer anything, I believe, but
"Thou sayest"...
so.. your "Yea is Yea" verse, is taken a bit out of context..
since Jesus is incouragiing people not to sear oaths...
Jesus is NOT talking about answering questions in a theological discussion...
but ...
if you are honest...
then you will admit that you have a HIDDEN AGENDA...
and if you feel that you will be frustrated in your "hidden agenda"...
THEN YOU QUICKLY loose interest in discussion....
..besides..
I sense that the foundations of your own faith are so weak..
that you would be genuinely threatened,
if you truly allowed yourself to entertain a diffent way of thinking...
You are such a believer in the "logic" of TRUTH..
that you can lead me to your 'TRUTH' by answering your questions
YES and NO...
BUT.... If the devil were to appear before you with a book..
with Jesus standing to one side...
and the devil were to say "In this book is a totally logical argument, which , if you read it, will forever dispell your belief in Jesus"...
and if you were to look to Jesus..
and He were to confirm the truth of what the devil says...
WOULD YOU READ THAT BOOK.....????
Because, IF you answer YES,
then you have admitted that you are willing to abandon your Faith in Jesus...
but... IF you answer NO,
then you admit that for you, your FAITH in Jesus is
MORE IMPORTANT to you than any TRUTH
which might possibly possibly be acquired
through language or discourse or syllogistic reasoning...
Boxer: Does this mean you are going to say more, ir is that the end of that particular thought?
Sitaram: Does This mean that you havent read or though about a word I have said.. and you ar just waiting to continue on your merry little YES or NO agenda???... you said you wanted to know what I think.. but then you want to limit me to yes and no like a courtroom..
Boxer: Its just that I am not in semi-retirement, thats all; I apologize for offend you.. may I continue with my question?
Sitaram: You are not someone who is genuinely interested in the beliefs of another human being..
in dialogue..
You are someone with a HIDDEN AGENDA..
YOU WANT TO CONVINCE ME OF THE correctness of your religion
by ROBBING ME OF MY FREE WILL...
it is what is done in courtrooms all the time....
Boxer: may I continue with my questions?
Sitaram: Not if it is YES and NO style questions...
because I dont think in a YES and NO style... sorry.
If you want to chat.. fine...
Boxer: ok..no (yes or no), but brevity would be appreciated.....
Sitaram: Look, if you SINCERELY want to know what I think about anything..
simply email me your question..
and I will be more than hapy to respond...
extemporaneously and discursively..
and answer to the best of my abilities....
Boxer: so it, for instance, your soul is advanced beyond mine, spiritually speaking, it means that GOd has chstised you more than me?
Boxer: dont you want people to know what you believe???
Sitaram: Look at my latest comment..
I think that email is the best method for us to communicate...
LOOK BOXER... you really are.. im sorry to say this.. in some sense a DISPICABLY DISHONEST, and SNEAKY TYPE OF SOPHIST..
so typical of may protestant missionaries....
I have been very generous in explaining to you in my own words what it is that I think.. beleive...
Boxer: and why would a person do that?
You simply want me to go away, I can see..
i already told you why I am here,
yet you dont even have the WISDOM
TO KNOW THE TRUTH FROM A LIE...
Sitaram: BUT YOU WANT TO PLAY THIS LITTLE CAT-and-mouse game of YES AND NO...
like Perry Mason....Yes BOXER.... you have the one and only saving truth... an I am a damned Idolator along with Ghandi and Mother Theresa with her Catholic Statues...
Boxer: thats not why im here,
you are almost as paranoid as you are verbose?
Sitaram: so I am perfectly content to rot in hell for all eternity next to the likes of Ghandi and Mother Theresa...
and you and YOUR KIND can say in heaven with your merciful "god"....
frankly, I dont care why you are here...
I BELIEVE I HAVE MADE MYSELF PERFECTLY CLEAR...
Boxer: If you aren't interested in sharing your beliefs,
just say so....
otherwise answer my questions
AS YOU PROMISED YOU WOULD
(notice the insidious attempts of the protestant to make his victim feel guilty in any manner possible)....
Sitaram: yes BOXER.. you are SO RIGHT and I am SO WRONG.. I haven't made ANY HONEST ATTEMPT to share my belifs with you...
and I am SO UNREASONABLE not to play our litle game of YES and NO, 20 Questions..
Boxer: such anger, I have rarely seen..
Sitaram: since you are blind to what a CONTEMPTIBLE, DISHONEST person you really are...
and your own intellectual dishonesty...
I dont expect you to understand anything I have said to you, or ever will say....
Boxer: Do you want me to understand?
Sitaram: I can only tell you quite frankly, that my opinion of you is now SO LOW..
that I really couldnt care what you personally think of me...
I really find even the act of communicating with ou distasteful...
Boxer: What is God's opiniion of me? do you not strive for His ways, and not our own?
Sitaram: ... and it is very clear to me now what a liar you are when you pretend to want ot understand the beliefs of others
Boxer: would He give me the courtesy of answering a few questions....
Sitaram: BOXER.. just have the courtesy not to communicate with me again...
please..
thank you...
Boxer: wold He act in such a hateful way?
Sitaram: BOXER... I have asked you very nicely, very politely...
Boxer: I will go now.
IF YOU EVER WANT TO KEEP YOUR WORD...
and answer the questions you said you would, ...
let me know.....
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